Overhead environments and open water scuba divers

[zaberman1]

I think two criteria to add (apologies if this was posted elsewhere) are:

1. If the overhead was not apart of your dive plan, don't do it.
2. If the dive-op or buddy says 'trust me' and jumps into the water before you can ask any questions, don't do it.

 

[fdennis]

I don't see how DMs (and novice divers, for that matter) don't have access to the required guidance. Every open water students reads and signs a copy of 'Safe Diving Practices'... so it's right there, clearly presented, before they ever receive a c-card for diving. PADI have that, so do SSI... I'd guess most agencies do.

"Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience. Do not engage in cave or technical diving unless specifically trained to do so."

That's the problem, though - isn't it? A diver's tools for proper risk recognition and assessment are training and experience. Without training and experience, however, a diver may not be in the position to even recognize or comprehend a risk exists, much less properly assess it. A bit of a Catch-22, that.

 

[DevonDiver]

A bit of a Catch-22, that.

Which is why a plethora of 'rules, recommendations and regulations' are given to novice divers.

Sadly, Darwin's Law does seem to determine that there'll always be a demographic who fail to see the value of those.

 

[flots am]

It may be that I was not qualified to enter these swim-throughs. I don't know. I have open water, advanced open water, rescue and nitrox certification. At the beginning of the week I had 22 dives, now 35.

But whether I was qualified or not, I felt perfectly safe on these swim-throughs, and would not have traded the experience of them for anything.

"Feeling safe" is an illusion based on not understanding the risks.

There are many places where you "feel safe" even though you're only minutes on the "Still OK" side of a potential disaster.

The Blue Hole is a great example. I'm reasonably certain that few of the participants understood that they were incurring a decompression obligation while at the same time using up the gas they would need to clear it and that an emergency ascent would result in injury or death.

Wrecks and long swim-throughs are another. If the diver in the middle happens to run out of air, the "buddies" in front and in back don't have the right equipment or training for an air share (even if they were aware what was going on), and the Out of Air Ascent, which is the last-ditch option for keeping an OW diver alive isn't possible because you're inside a rock.

While these dives are, AFAIK, done without a lot of injuries or fatalities, this doesn't make them safe and the diver feeling safe is only the result of not understanding what's really going on.

flots.

 

[DevonDiver]

"Feeling safe" is an illusion based on not understanding the risks.

Amen to that!

Don't we all "feel safe" until something goes wrong? People don't dive in a constant state of fear and caution - primarily because we don't perceive the risks that exist. As they gain more experience and/or training, that perception of risk increases. With experience, most divers feel 'less safe' as time goes on. The wise ones address that increased awareness through training...

It's a pretty universal lesson. For instance, I saw the same 'awakening' when people arrived in Afghanistan... the more you learn, the more risk you recognize, the more cautious you become.

 

[TSandM]

Matt has brought up what I think is an excellent point.

The DM or captain briefs the site. What do you need to know about it, and was that information adequately covered in the briefing?

If the briefing includes swimthroughs or caverns, you need to know how big the space is, whether there are navigational decisions, whether there is ambient light, and what the bottom sediments are -- at a bare minimum. The first cave I swam into, I learned a few things about before I went in -- it was about 20 feet long, had a single bore, had no other exits, and had a bottom made of sand. It was big enough everywhere for a diver to turn around easily. I asked all those questions long before I ever had any cave training, and although I sort of knew what I was doing was probably foolish, I thought it would be okay, and it was. But I ASKED THE QUESTIONS. I often ask questions after dive briefings. I'm listening for certain things, and if I don't hear them, I'll ask about them. Sometimes the guide may have forgotten; sometimes he perhaps doesn't think the things I care about are important enough to mention, or thinks they ought to be self-evident. I have no shyness about asking for more information, if I feel as though I need it. Nobody should hesitate to do that.

 

[DevonDiver]

If the briefing includes swimthroughs or caverns, you need to know how big the space is, whether there are navigational decisions, whether there is ambient light, and what the bottom sediments are -- at a bare minimum.

I think the underlying issue is whether divers know what questions to ask and how the answers relate to their experience.

The base problem of "you don't know what you don't know" is the evident flaw - how does one ask pertinent questions, if one doesn't understand what issues they need to consider in the first place?

I often ask questions after dive briefings. I'm listening for certain things, and if I don't hear them, I'll ask about them.

Has this approach changed as you gained experience - or was it a behavior that existed from your first experiences as a diver? If so, have the questions changed... and how you utilized the answered received?

Sometimes the guide may have forgotten; sometimes he perhaps doesn't think the things I care about are important enough to mention, or thinks they ought to be self-evident.

If so, I'd be inclined to think that the guide wasn't responsible enough to consider taking divers into those sort of situations. I'd further be inclined to 'walk away' from that dive/diver...

 

[fdennis]

The base problem of "you don't know what you don't know" is the evident flaw - how does one ask pertinent questions, if one doesn't understand what issues they need to consider in the first place?

Thank you, DD - this is exactly was I was shooting for earlier. Newly OW-certified divers are in the unenviable position of lacking the training and experience to recognize a wide array of risks may exist which have not been addressed in their training to date. Or, to paraphrase - not only do they not know anything, they don't suspect anything.

 

[CamG]

This thread has brought back some not so pleasant memories of dive #15 which was a guided dive in a Cenote in MX.
The first dive was ok till I was stuck behind a very inept frog kicking diver.
At the point that the struggles began I started to become a bit anxious not for any other reason other than being annoyed.
I did however decide to bag the second dive because of the whole misery of the first dive.

I HAD NOT IDEA OF THE RISKS OTHER THAN BEING TOLD TO STAY OUT OF CAVES BY OUR OW INSTRUCTOR!
The dives were completed as previously discussed without a hitch but it was sort of odd the manner in which I was treated when I told the others I would not be joining them on the next dive.
The guide started trying to buy my TransPac and I was not amused by the ribbing from a few other divers.
I feel it odd now admitting that I was not able to enjoy the dive due to the stress of the experience.

If I were to do the same dive now I would be enthralled and love every minute of it.
The difference is now I have been trained to dive overhead environments and enjoy to train to manage the risks involved in cave diving.
I find it odd that the only person to bag the guided dive in 2007 is the only person who went on to seek training and become a cave diver.
It just goes to show you that we all are wired a bit different but when we are trained to manage the risks of the environment the whole experience changes.
For me personally I fell in love with the whole experience, the training, the community of people, the cave itself!

If you are interested seek the training you will never loose!
Even if you decide not to dive caves or wrecks your dive skills will be greatly improved due to the training experience.
ALSO NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ALLOW ANYONE TO TAKE YOU ON A DIVE YOU ARE NOT TRAINED FOR!
There are NO benefits of these dives other than luck if you make it out!
I would have been money ahead to train before I attempted the Cenote dive that early in my dive career.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

 

[tstormdiver]

Cam, I remember a few years ago when my shop went to Malaysia for 2 weeks. It was some of the most phenomenal diving I've evr done (now ranks closely behind the Mexican caves). On one of the dives to Sipadan Island, later in the trip we were informed that part of the dive was to enter a sea cave called Turtle cave (named for some turtle skeletons in the back of the cave). I was already at the Intro level, but atthat time did not have my reel or light with me. I had brought them to Malaysia with me, but did not have them on that boat trip). Without either, I did not feel safe. I told the dive master that I would remain outside of the cave during that portion of the dive. You ought to have heard all the ribbing I got, mostly along the lines of, "look at the cave diver who won't go in". I stuck to my guns & refused to go in, even when asked, by hand signals, by the rest of the group once the dive had commenced. Did they not think I wanted to go in? Of course I did, but not unprepared. They blindly followed the dive master into the cave. Thankfully about 15 min. later they all emerged safe & sound. All the while I was sitting there wondering how I was going to raise the emergency call & inform my cave instructor (who was leading the whole trip), if they did not. I still got lots of comments about not going in, on the trip back to the resort. In the end, I knew I was right. A couple days later I went back & may cave instructor was with our boat. When he found out about the cave penetration, after it had happened, he was livid that the dive masters would risk the safety of his clients. He tried to make both the dive masters & the customers who had gone in, understand the risks they had taken,... to no avail. It was decided that the dive master, myself & my instructor would go in this time while the others stayed outside. I took a light & a cavern reel. At 140ft penetration, I ran out of line. The skeletons were another 150ft back,... almost 300ft back. I stayed on the end of the line. The guide & my instructor went on to the skeletons & we kept in light communication at all times. The cave was rather low & very silty with sand. I could not see the entrance from the end of the line. At that point, it really drove home the dangers that these other unsuspecting divers were putting themselves into. If someone had lost their buoyancy & dropped a fin into the silt,... it would have made for a very bad day for some. Why did these guides lead untrained divers into this cave? Simply to enhance the diver's experiences & get bigger tips. We were told this directly. To this day, they still do these cave tours daily. Yes, there have been fatalities from it,.. but of course you don't hear about that in the briefings. All the more reason that overhead training is so important.