Why is this not the standard?

[drrich2]

Since most divers train in jacket BCD's for basic OW (and often AOW), it stands to reason that's what a lot of the dive shop's customers will come in looking for. If the shop only has BP/W setups, that'll be off-putting. Since not as much of the buying public are familiar with them, if the shop wants to sell a bunch, they'll need to 'evangelize' them. Won't that involve 'dissing' jacket BCD's (a significant portion of your dive center's stock) by comparison, since the point of buying a BP/W must surely be that it's somehow 'better?'

And what about those customers who are not 'hands on' types, mechanically inclined, etc..., who intensely dislike the 'tyranny of choice' - in other words, who need a jacket BCD where they can put a tank in the straps, attach the low pressure inflator, put it on, put on the Velcro cumberbund, and attach the 2 'cross body' quick disconnect straps, then get in the water?

If you start talking about different wing options (sold separately), talk about threading 'webbing' through the holes (which ones? There can be so many...) on the backplate, and whether to get a stainless steel or aluminum backplate, and gee it doesn't come with pockets so how to integrated weights work on that thing...

In addition to that, a lot of divers bought a jacket BCD during or shortly after OW training, and it's what they know and use. Several hundred on a BP/W setup because other people say you'll like it can be a hard sell. And introverts and some other folks who don't have a close buddy diving one of the things will lack ready mentoring on use. Think of those who argue that you don't need an AOW course since you can learn all that & more by diving with seasoned buddy 'mentors' in your area. Then think of the legions of people who sign up for AOW instead, and who otherwise wouldn't get much additional training.

I've never dove BP/W and am curious about them (hence why I've read through this thread & others), though I'd probably opt for one of the side-mount rigs. Same concerns, though; I watch a video or read & people start talking about 'bungie cords,' and what-not.

But as a potential 'customer,' I'd be highly interested if PADI or one of the other mainstream agencies offered a 'Configurations Specialist' (had to call it something) course where the student did a dive or two with each of some different configurations; BP/W, Doubles, Side-mount, rear inflate vs. regular jacket BCD, etc... It will seem silly to some of you, but to many people it'd make the difference between doing it & not doing it.

Richard.

P.S.: I'd suggest a dive shop looking to move BP/W sell complete systems - wing attached, webbing already through the holes, pockets attached (or 'we do it for you right now!'), etc...

P.S. #2: As a dive who mainly dives warm water with no set suit, the idea of a 'crotch strap' is quite disturbing.

 

[gcarter]

My Balance BCD was bought with the following knowledge:

I used a BCD during my training.
SeaQuest is a good brand / safe bet.
It is in a package with Apeks regs & console.
Apeks is a good brand / safe bet.
The overall package was priced attractively.

I am quite happy with what I have.

However.

My son did his OW in a BCD.
When it came time to buy him new gear, I had spent some time reading on SB.
I / we had also spent some time looking at gear and talking to other divers at the local quarry.
Son will eventually go the tec route, probably cave as well.
We dive in cold water = beaucoup de lead

He has a Hog plate and 32lb wing with a standard harness. He is thrilled with how it dives.

I didn't really know it was a practical option when I got mine. He did.

It really comes down to the LDS and what they introduce students to. Unless they have other influences, they are likely to go the BCD route. Some, like me, are OK with that, even if we might make a different choice if we had to spend the money over again. Others will not be ok with that and will make the change.

But you can bet your tukus that if the situation were reversed, there would be people starting in BPW and moving to BCD.

So much for standards

 

[DevonDiver]

... as a potential 'customer,' I'd be highly interested if PADI or one of the other mainstream agencies offered a 'Configurations Specialist' (had to call it something) course where the student did a dive or two with each of some different configurations; BP/W, Doubles, Side-mount, rear inflate vs. regular jacket BCD, etc... It will seem silly to some of you, but to many people it'd make the difference between doing it & not doing it.

The answer, I believe, is simply to find a qualified technical diving instructor and ask them for a intro to whatever kit you're interested in. There's no reason why single-tank BP&W couldn't be introduced in conjunction with any other PADI course.

Within PADI (and other agencies) the Intro-to-Tech and Tech Basics courses exist to offer training/familiarization on doubles/BP&W rigs. Sidemount has dedicated courses at rec and tec levels. ALL OF THOSE can be included as adventure dive options within the AOW program. Each aspect (BP/W, doubles and sidemount) could be introduced/dove as a stand-alone 'adventure dive' also (if the instructor was qualified to provide them).

If you didn't demand a c-card, then a tech instructor could easily arrange an informal training/introduction/familiarization on whatever equipment configurations/types that you wanted to try. I do such a thing, based on a flexible 'mentoring' program where a student can cover any diving skill they want, for my daily rate

. P.S. #2: As a dive who mainly dives warm water with no set suit, the idea of a 'crotch strap' is quite disturbing.

I think that one of the biggest retards to widespread BP/W popularity are the number of incorrect assumptions made about the rig. Comfort issues are prime amongst those assumptions, including the crotch strap. Sadly, too few instructors, divemaster or shop employees are sufficiently knowledgeable to counteract those assumptions with the reality.

 

[TSandM]

" Because DIR's insistence on standardization is frequently misunderstood, it sometimes becomes a source of tension among divers. This is because some see the insistence on uniformity as an indictment of practices that do not abide by DIR principles."

What's the problem with this statement? Jarrod is saying that people misunderstand the DIR emphasis on standardization as being a criticism of other practices, which it is not . . . I think it's a very true statement, and doesn't reflect poorly on the author at all.

 

[DevonDiver]

Because DIR's insistence on standardization is frequently misunderstood...

That's the guy who wrote the book on DIR...No surprise that DIR is seen as....

One thing you can't fault about Jarrod, is his ability to predict a misinformed reaction

 

[ElGaucho]

I actually teach recreational PADI courses in BP/W. I am a city based independent instructor, so I like owning some gear for classes. I have 5 sets I use for students. Amongst the advantages is one size fits all. It also allowed me, now that Im working on my tech instructor rating, to have an upgrade path. I can make at least 2 student sets for doubles (I have some extra doubles wings of course). All this modularity, the fact that one size fits all, upgradability, and by the time I have to start changing stuff that breaks it´s obvious the advantage will also be in favor of BPW.

Also, it allows me to teach the way I dive, and what I can consider a more reasonable equipment setup by far (including long hose, and a KISS principle, together with some DIR specific mindsets). It allows me to offer something different to 99% of dice centers and instructors around here, and a kick ass course to begin with. It just makes sense.

---------- Post Merged at 07:27 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:21 AM ----------

As a side note, I rent pool time here in the city. That pool time includes equipment for students in the price. So it includes a BCD as well as regs. I believe this works out great for me and my students. They use a BCD and a standard reg throughout the confined water dives and a BPW and long hose setup for the open water dives. We do some land drills with BPW and long hoses before we set out to OW, so they usually arrive feeling pretty confident about the change. When the course ends, they have some information to be able to choose for themselves what they prefer. Guess what? 90% choose the BPW route.

 

[gypsyjim]

What's the problem with this statement? Jarrod is saying that people misunderstand the DIR emphasis on standardization as being a criticism of other practices, which it is not . . . I think it's a very true statement, and doesn't reflect poorly on the author at all.

It is pretty much human nature to fear, belittle and/or reject what one does not understand, or that which requires adapting to something different from what you are used to.

 

[Them]

One thing you can't fault about Jarrod, is his ability to predict a misinformed reaction

I'm willing to accept that I'm misinformed. I've only read a few things Jarrod wrote and I'm judging him entirely by his writings.

Do you understand my position? Can you point me to anything Jarrod has done or said which indicates that my critique of his position is invalid?

Jarrod is saying that people misunderstand the DIR emphasis on standardization as being a criticism of other practices, which it is not . . . I think it's a very true statement, and doesn't reflect poorly on the author at all.

According to wikipedia the man has a degree in English. I think it's valid to expect that someone with a degree in English should understand and be trained in the use of nuance. Therefore, if an implication is present it must be assumed that English-major Jarrod intended what he implied.

What's the problem with this statement?

"Because DIR's insistence on standardization is frequently misunderstood, it sometimes becomes a source of tension among divers." TRANSLATION: Tension between DIR and non-DIR divers is because non-DIR divers don't understand a central axiom of DIR. If they understood they would agree.

"This is because some see the insistence on uniformity as an indictment of practices that do not abide by DIR principles." TRANSLATION: The only reason they don't understand is unwillingness to accept that someone else knows a better way.

 

[gypsyjim]

Or possibly:

The only reason they don't understand is unwillingness to accept that someone else knows [-]a better[/-] another (?) way.

From my perspective no choice is the right one, if it is not what you chose. There are many many ways to set up dive gear, and except in special circumstances, such as team technical diving, where standardization is a significant safety factor, all have their place in this sport.

 

[Them]

Or possibly:

... another way.

Everything I've read indicates he would strongly disagree with your word substitution. I hope I'm wrong.

From my perspective no choice is the right one, if it is not what you chose. There are many many ways to set up dive gear, and except in special circumstances, such as team technical diving, where standardization is a significant safety factor, all have their place in this sport.

From my perspective the right choice will always depend on circumstances. There may be many right choices, and they may or may not be what you chose, but everything in life is compromise and adaptation. If someone tells you one solution will work best for everyone/everything be very skeptical.

As for teams... When soldiers are organized into fighting units, they are assigned different gear and roles so that the team can operate more efficiently. You have some people with infantry rifles, some designated marksmen with longer range weapons, some gear is issued to each individual while other items are distributed through the group and others go to only some individuals. The same is true of training.

Or imagine a hospital where everyone was required to use exactly the same gear and received exactly the same training...