PADI Master Scuba Diver - what does it give you?

[vcblklion]

I will agree with the above posts that if you have 5 specialties and Rescue Diver, getting the Master Diver Card doesn't add anything. I paid the $40 for the card, and considering I have spent more money, on much more frivolous things many times, I don't regret it.

I think Master Scuba Diver is a more personal thing, it doesn't do anything to indicate your diving competency that your specialty cards and Rescue Diver cards don't already do, but you can feel good about wrapping your accomplishments under the title.

No offense....but this response sounds like a justification for spending the money on the card. Most of the PADI courses are just to suck more money out of you. After Rescue if you are not going pro the only thing you need to do is.....DIVE....you will learn all those things from your buddies, dive masters, dive instructors, boat captains and anyone else you come in to contact with in the dive world. If the instructor is worth their salt, I'd suggest the photographer specialty..but I can't see any of the other courses being of much value or worth. You can feel just as accomplished once you've achieved your 50th dive or 100th dive and still have money in your pocket for equipment you'll find that you need and want later on. Just dive!!

I will add this...if you have trouble getting yourself out to dive and/or finding dive buddies....then the Master Diver course is a good way to force you to get out there....other than that...well.....nuff said...

 

[agilis]

"A piece of plastic does mean something, in fact it appears to mean a lot to you" (from jviehe)

If you mean one of mine, only as a fashion statement.

As a credential it, like almost every card issued, is utterly worthless. Instead of accumulating cards new divers would be much better off developing skills, carefully and methodically. Depending on the skill this can best be accomplished alone in appropriate circumstances, or with someone whose expertise has not been established by a card. Patience, time, and total committment are required.

This is true of most things. Ultimately, we always teach ourselves. Sometimes with help, sometimes not. It's not unlike learning to play the piano with skill.

Anyone who makes competency judgments based on most plastic cards is not thinking clearly. Perhaps they were badly trained by card printers and the spawn of card printers from what are unaccredited, self defined, profit making entities. There are a few accredited certification agencies. These are generally connected with specialized research institutions.

All skill acquisition is self developed. It's not the card. It's you.

 

[nimoh]

No offense....but this response sounds like a justification for spending the money on the card. Most of the PADI courses are just to suck more money out of you. After Rescue if you are not going pro the only thing you need to do is.....DIVE....you will learn all those things from your buddies, dive masters, dive instructors, boat captains and anyone else you come in to contact with in the dive world. If the instructor is worth their salt, I'd suggest the photographer specialty..but I can't see any of the other courses being of much value or worth. You can feel just as accomplished once you've achieved your 50th dive or 100th dive and still have money in your pocket for equipment you'll find that you need and want later on. Just dive!!

I will add this...if you have trouble getting yourself out to dive and/or finding dive buddies....then the Master Diver course is a good way to force you to get out there....other than that...well.....nuff said...

no offense taken, I agree that the things I learned in my specialty classes, I probably would have learned anyway...for free. But I do find the classes to be a lot of fun, which is why I take them and continue to take them, although I am probably done with PADI classes now, since I have my sights set on tech diving, so my future classes will be oriented towards that.

In addition to taking classes, I do get out and dive. In the past year, I have been wreck diving in Lake Superior, explored an abandoned mine in Missouri, crab diving in Puget Sound, reef dives in Brazil and Mexico, and a cave dive in Mexico. None of these dives were part of a class.

I am also pretty lucky to have great instructors in my area, so as you put it, they are "worth their salt".

 

[Max Speed]

5 specialties required plus a small fee. OK, let's add up the value:

1) Oxygen Provider- gotta have it for Rescue.
2) Deep- Required for tech courses with some agencies.
3) Nitrox- Required to buy fills and for Advanced Nitrox and up.
4) Drysuit/Scooter- Required to rent a drysuit or scooter
5) Wreck/Cavern- May save your life in an overhead, reel skills, required for cave.

Ok, how much did you just spend on that stuff and what percentage of tbat is the feel good card. Why not buy it?

Now if PADI would just print all your certs on the back...

Sent from my SPH-P100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[-hh]

I think though that a Master's degree and experience is probably better than experience alone, but then again, I'm trying to figure out how I got sucked into this discussion since I don't think it is a very good analogy for a Master Scuba Diver rating.

It is an extremely poor analogy, but we unfortunately see college degree analogies being made all the time. Of course, a formal degree does encompass literally years of classroom time, so there's an indisputable element of experience (of some sort!) within, which isn't necessarily the case with "One Day" sized Specialty Cards. And (no offense to any individuals intended), the irony here is is that one doesn't even need a High School Diploma to get one's DM, AI, Instructor or even Master Instructor C-Cards.

5 specialties required plus a small fee. OK, let's add up the value:

1) Oxygen Provider- gotta have it for Rescue.
2) Deep- Required for tech courses with some agencies.
3) Nitrox- Required to buy fills and for Advanced Nitrox and up.
4) Drysuit/Scooter- Required to rent a drysuit or scooter
5) Wreck/Cavern- May save your life in an overhead, reel skills, required for cave.

Yes, there are certainly some specialties that are pretty decent. However, there can just as easily be a "Master" whose five specialties were:

1) AWARE - Fish ID
2) Multilevel Diver
3) Underwater Basket-weaving
4) Boat Diver
5) Coral Reef Conservation

Yes, I know that #3 is an oldie that's not around anymore...but there's no requirement for the specialties to be on the currently approved list, plus there's others that can be substituted such as National Geographic Diver, or UW Naturalist. The reason I selected these examples is quite pragmatic: we know that most divers are diving from boats and doing multi-level profiles on their dive computers, yet #2 and #4 aren't dictated as prerequisites to accept customers. Similarly, #1, and #5 are mostly flora & fauna knowledge...having personal interest and a set of the Paul Humann ID books are just as good of (if not better) an investment. And before one pokes fun at #3, do be aware of its history in that it actually did help develop buoyancy control skills. IIRC, there was also an UW Pumpkin Carving Speciality at one point too.

And this is what I was alluding to before: having a "Master" doesn't do much to indicate what went into it. Sure, we can try to say that by analogy there's good colleges and not-so-good ones, but at the very least, they are typically all Accredited by an independent organization, and once you're out in the real world with Job Experience, it is your on-the-job performance that matters, not the school's name on the sheepskin....the closest analogy we could make here would be the same certification rating issued from different dive Agencies...ie, NAUI DM vs PADI DM or whatever, and that old advice for perspective new divers, "It isn't the Agency, but the Instructor".


-hh

 

[dmoore19]

I am one of those vacation divers many like to complain about. I have about 65 dives, I have my OW, AOW and Nitrox certs from PADI. I am getting close to 6 decades old and started about 3 years ago. I will probably seek my Rescue Diver Cert when I get +/- 100 dives under my belt. I am safety minded, have probably done a dive or 2 that was over my abilities. I am going to seek more dive education as I feel is needed/possible. I haven't taken a course that I did not learn something. I am proud of the certifications I have achieved. I don't feel any of them are worthless, I did not do them for the card, I did them to gain knowledge and give me the means to achieve the dream of being able to swim around and look at pretty fishes safely.

I will also say that one one trip I was on, the worst diver in the group was a NAUI Master Diver certified wreck. During our week of diving, the Instructor on our trip would have had his certification cancelled if he thought it might have been possible. In my experience the agency makes no difference. The attitude of the person taking those classes and the instructor are the most important factors in learning and then applying the knowledge gained in any class or course taken.

I posted this in another thread. It seems to fit better here. The point is that the attitude of the person taking the class plays a role that is as important as the instructor. The attitudes of the instructor and the student are more important than the card or the agency it came from. If a student goes into a class thinking they already know everything, they will not learn anything and the class is a waste of time and effort.

 

[jviehe]

It is interesting how much the idea of a MSD card bothers some people. As someone else posted long ago I think it's because of the name "Master" and we all know 5 specialties and under 50 dives doesn't make a Master of anyone. But other than that if someone wants to get continuing education and wants a card to signify how much they have what's the big deal.

I regularly dive with about 6 or so buddies. Other than the 2 that I know are DMs I have no idea what certs the others have and don't really care to know.

Its just PADI bashing. Nothing unique. I dont mind having a civil disagreement about PADI, I just see no need for the sarcasm and insults. This forum is intended to be very friendly, as the rules say.

---------- Post Merged at 11:14 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:12 AM ----------

"A piece of plastic does mean something, in fact it appears to mean a lot to you" (from jviehe)

If you mean one of mine, only as a fashion statement.

As a credential it, like almost every card issued, is utterly worthless. Instead of accumulating cards new divers would be much better off developing skills, carefully and methodically. Depending on the skill this can best be accomplished alone in appropriate circumstances, or with someone whose expertise has not been established by a card. Patience, time, and total committment are required.

This is true of most things. Ultimately, we always teach ourselves. Sometimes with help, sometimes not. It's not unlike learning to play the piano with skill.

Anyone who makes competency judgments based on most plastic cards is not thinking clearly. Perhaps they were badly trained by card printers and the spawn of card printers from what are unaccredited, self defined, profit making entities. There are a few accredited certification agencies. These are generally connected with specialized research institutions.

All skill acquisition is self developed. It's not the card. It's you.

No, I mean you appear to have a very strong feeling about a piece of plastic.

---------- Post Merged at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:12 AM ----------

It is an extremely poor analogy, but we unfortunately see college degree analogies being made all the time. Of course, a formal degree does encompass literally years of classroom time, so there's an indisputable element of experience (of some sort!) within, which isn't necessarily the case with "One Day" sized Specialty Cards. And (no offense to any individuals intended), the irony here is is that one doesn't even need a High School Diploma to get one's DM, AI, Instructor or even Master Instructor C-Cards.




Yes, there are certainly some specialties that are pretty decent. However, there can just as easily be a "Master" whose five specialties were:

1) AWARE - Fish ID
2) Multilevel Diver
3) Underwater Basket-weaving
4) Boat Diver
5) Coral Reef Conservation

Yes, I know that #3 is an oldie that's not around anymore...but there's no requirement for the specialties to be on the currently approved list, plus there's others that can be substituted such as National Geographic Diver, or UW Naturalist. The reason I selected these examples is quite pragmatic: we know that most divers are diving from boats and doing multi-level profiles on their dive computers, yet #2 and #4 aren't dictated as prerequisites to accept customers. Similarly, #1, and #5 are mostly flora & fauna knowledge...having personal interest and a set of the Paul Humann ID books are just as good of (if not better) an investment. And before one pokes fun at #3, do be aware of its history in that it actually did help develop buoyancy control skills. IIRC, there was also an UW Pumpkin Carving Speciality at one point too.

And this is what I was alluding to before: having a "Master" doesn't do much to indicate what went into it. Sure, we can try to say that by analogy there's good colleges and not-so-good ones, but at the very least, they are typically all Accredited by an independent organization, and once you're out in the real world with Job Experience, it is your on-the-job performance that matters, not the school's name on the sheepskin....the closest analogy we could make here would be the same certification rating issued from different dive Agencies...ie, NAUI DM vs PADI DM or whatever, and that old advice for perspective new divers, "It isn't the Agency, but the Instructor".


-hh

I think some of the confusion stems from the idea that people are treating recreational training as if its about becoming an expert diver. But, at least for PADI, its about enabling divers to have fun. These are recreational courses, and they are designed towards casual divers, tourist divers, to help them experience new things.

So someone may take a speciality in 'whale shark observation' which is no where near as technical as a 'cavern' speciality, but count equally towards MSD. As long as the student has fun, then I dont see a problem. PADI is effectively selling entertainment. And its totally ok that some people dont like that and think diving should be more technical. I respect that other people have different opinions.

 

[nimoh]

I think what it boils down to is that some people get frustrated with people that carry the Master Scuba Diver rating and think that it means that they have actually mastered scuba diving. Many of these frustrated people are probably better divers than most Master Scuba Divers.

I have a Master Scuba Diver rating, but know that it means nothing other than I am a Rescue Diver with 5 specialties. I know that my Master Scuba Rating doesn't mean that I am an expert scuba diver, far from it, I still have a lot to learn.

It's just a marketing term!

 

[Fish-R-Man]

I think what it boils down to is that some people get frustrated with people that carry the Master Scuba Diver rating and think that it means that they have actually mastered scuba diving. Many of these frustrated people are probably better divers than most Master Scuba Divers.

I have a Master Scuba Diver rating, but know that it means nothing other than I am a Rescue Diver with 5 specialties. I know that my Master Scuba Rating doesn't mean that I am an expert scuba diver, far from it, I still have a lot to learn.

It's just a marketing term!

Some days I feel the same way about people with drivers licenses! Especially mini van drivers.

There is always the possibility of someone holding a Master divers card that has a long ways to go from being even competent. It does show that they have completed the required classes to obtain the card. I have one from SSI. I don't carry it, it just stays in my log book with the rest of the cards. If they were fortunate to take classes from a good instructor, I am sure that there were other bits of information that were picked up that was not specific for the class, like bouyancy and trim help. I took a dry suit class so that I would be able to rent one if I was traveling. I already owned one for a number of years, so taking the class wasn't high on my list. The day we went diving for the class, the instructor had another student taking a bouyancy class. We ended up combining the two and I learned some good tricks to better my trim and bouyancy when I am using my suit.

It's all about the learning. For some people having a card that recocnizes what they have accomplished is good for them. How others feel about it shouldn't really matter. It's kind of like credit cards. I remember when I got issued my first "gold" card. It didn't do anything better than the old standard card, I could still spend money with it like the old one, but it said that I had enough responsibility, credit, etc to obtain one. I was pretty young then and it did give me a sense of pride when I used it.

 

[boulderjohn]

The literature I had to read when I became an instructor made it pretty clear that the original purpose of the card is to give some people an incentive to get further training. The idea was based on the Boy Scouts--you go through the upper ranks by getting a certain number of merit badges. Back when the program started, there weren't a lot more than 5 specialties, so a person who completed the card had pretty much completed the available training.

Back then there were really no other options, either. What we call technical diving today, with all those different agencies teaching all those different courses, did not exist.

Today we have many more options, and I think the agencies that offer cards like this (which is almost all of them, not just PADI) are somewhat trapped in that past. I think they should just jettison all the old terminology and start over again, but I don't see that happening soon.

I am a great believer in getting training myself. When I go on dive trips I see boats filled with highly experienced divers who do not seem to have any more skills or knowledge than when they left OW class. How are they going to learn to get better--by watching the other less than competent divers around them and imitating them? If you pick your training carefully, you can learn a whole lot in a hurry. My stack of certification cards is almost exactly 1.5 inches tall. You may think of me as a card collector, but the vast majority of those cards entitle me to do something that I would not otherwise have been allowed to do, and each one of them brought valuable training and experience.

And by the way, I do not qualify for the Master Scuba Diver card, and I don't have it.