SSI Class - Failed

[yarik83]

I concur with all of your comments.

I do, however, believe that every situation is different. For example not every dive instructor has a long list of things to pay for. My instructor for example does not have a boat but has a contract with a boat charter and a hotel and has virtually every aspect of business paid off. That is not so say that most instructors have such luxury but every situation is different.

It would be hard for me to agree with the so called myth of low paid instructor trainers. Let's be honest... career instructors (those that have chose to be instructors like 20+ years ago) have long ago figured out how to generate income from scuba business. Many LDS are family owned so most of their income comes from sale of equipment which is most often priced higher to compensate for items that you described in your post. I know a few instructors like that and honestly their net worth is substantially higher than that of most career people I know.

I have met quite a few aspiring instructors and certified instructors who are something like... paramedics AND scuba instructors or electricians AND scuba instructors or handymen AND scuba instructors. If you take those into equation then yes I suppose part time scuba instructors are not highly paid.

You have hit the nail on the head when talking about physical ability of people. Not everyone is cut out to be a scuba diver and that should be disclosed at beginning of the class.

 

[Superlyte27]

career instructors (those that have chose to be instructors like 20+ years ago) have long ago figured out how to generate income from scuba business.

And what they figured out is exactly what I outlined in this post. Who do you think I got that business example from? LOL

 

[Shasta_man]

To summarize your latest massive, it's not a good paying gig, it's barely paying the bills and it's not worth the struggle against the incompetence anymore.

 

[Superlyte27]

who are you summarizing?
I never said any of that.

 

[supergaijin]

20 years ago- ah yes, the scuba diving 'Golden Years' of the 1990s. They have little direct bearing on the economic reality of today.

Some instructors who own their own businesses are doing alright financially. I find it hard to believe that working instructors are earning 50k a year in all but the most exceptional circumstances. The costs of scuba training vs the cost to the consumer- ie. the margin is too slight to be making outrageous profits IMO.

We are the 99%! (JOKE)

I am in no way making excuses for sloppy training or unscrupulous outfits. Scuba instruction has a price and if requirements are met then the instructor is not allowed to withhold certification under PADI/SSI. As mentioned, if instructors were to give 'the talk' to marginal students after the first couple of CW dives, there would be a lot less divers in the world (good and bad).

If a course was to be scheduled over a solid 10 days, then it would be expected that struggling students would be taken aside for 'the talk' and some kind of arrangement to be sorted out. But in a bare-bones, minimum cost course like the one in the OP, there simply isn't enough evaluation time to do this, as people who struggle for the first sessions often are fine in the later stages. A bare-bones course is typically 3 days (or 18hrs long), so those later stages are potentially the last day of that course.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Wow.. massive thread!

Yep sounds like a rip off to me. Been enough good advice about contacting SSI and Groupon.

Unfortunately people often have no idea what they are getting into with diving. They have no way to measure what reasonable costs are or what questions to ask to make sure they are getting quality. That information is normally learned the hard way!

I don't think it is reasonable to expect an instructor to be able to bring everyone up to speed in every class unless the standards are set for the dumbest possible student to pass. Even then you can get them to do the skill and they seem to flush it down the loo with their next drink of coffee!

We need to look at the way things are marketed. It needs to be clear what the customer is paying their money for. Every course I teach (not scuba but also a skills and knowledge based) I start with explaining the topics covered, the assessment process, what the critical elements are, (show them the checklist) and tell them what their options are if they are not successful in the assessments. At the end of the day they also have to sign that I explained the assessment process and that it was valid and fair or that they want to appeal against the assessment decision. I have never had an appeal even on the rare occasions that I have had to fail participants. Even the best instructor may get someone who is just not capable of achieving competence in some skill sets. To have 7 out of 7 in one class? IMHO Impossible!

 

[ams511]

Devon's post about Mcdonalds reminds me of a sign that I read once. And it's probably the best sign I've ever seen.

Good
Fast
Cheap


Pick any two.

This was the thinking of American businesses up until the 1970's. The thinking at the time was that a business can compete on price, quality, or service but not all three. That was until the Japanese started to compete on all three factors. The Japanese philosophy was very simple, some costs add to the value of the product and some costs don't. The goal is to reduce or eliminate the costs that don't add value. Dive shop mark-up does not add value to product, the success of Leisure Pro illustrates this. Why would a diver pay $700 for a regulator when a mail-order firm sells it for less? The LDS needs to justify its markup besides the normal BS about providing airfills.

I read a news article about Groupon and how many businesses are dissatisfied with the results. The problem is that Groupon attracts primarily bargain hunters that generate little additional business. They only want the offer, which is usually a loss-leader. So businesses are not doing repeat business with Groupon. It seems diveshop's experience is typical and they attracted a class full of bargain hunters that didn't purchase any equipment. The shop probably realized this was money-losing proposition and decided to cut its losses.

 

[barrmust]

Devon Diver said:

"In the case of this thread.... the instructor cut the class (offered extension) AT AN EARLY STAGE. Doesn't that agree with your statement? The instructor DIDN'T wait until the last minute, before failing the class... he made his decision early... at the mid-point in training"


If you re read the post the class was not at the mid point in its training. It was finished with the training portion of the course. All the pool work was done and all the exams including the final were compleated and passed when ALL 7 of the students were told they were not ready to do their check out dives. The check out dives are not part of the training they are the practical final exam.

If the students were not pulled aside and informed they had problems before finishing everything in the "training" portion of the class then something is fishy about it.

 

[t4e]

It would be hard for me to agree with the so called myth of low paid instructor trainers. Let's be honest... career instructors (those that have chose to be instructors like 20+ years ago) have long ago figured out how to generate income from scuba business. Many LDS are family owned so most of their income comes from sale of equipment which is most often priced higher to compensate for items that you described in your post. I know a few instructors like that and honestly their net worth is substantially higher than that of most career people I know.

I'm not going to ask how exactly do you know their net worth...family owned business don't make their books public, now if you are their accountant that's different

lets not forget that any LDS in a 4 season regions is subject to seasonal business, which means that the bulk of their income is made in 4-5 months of the high season in the summer, yet their overhead is the same all year round

now an idea would be to do what the landscape businesses do, gardening in the summer and plowing snow in the winter...so an LDS would switch to winter sports when the diving slows down

here's just a simple example:
expenses:
rent 12months @$600=7,200
utilities 12months@$200=2400

income:
courses 12students @$600 =7,200

not even close to a profit, and i haven't even added the taxes due to the government

i'm sure there's other income, otherwise they wouldn't stay in business but this is just making a point

 

[Superlyte27]

A few things were said that are spot on....

It's impossible to give all three in 90% of business. Were you not paying attention the last decade when Japan was bankrupt. Sure, they were giving all three, and the auto manufacturers and other businesses were in financial ruin. Guess who bailed them out? I guess you missed that college class.

Lets take Walmart. The largest company in the world. Do they give all three? Nope. They have the lowest customer satisfaction in our region. Their meat isn't as good as say Publix or Sweetbay. Their clientele is subpar and as such, the affluent refuse to shop there. If a person goes to the checkout with two shopping carts to buy groceries and their EBT card gets rejected, guess how long that shopping cart sits before the items get put back on the shelf. Two sometimes three hours. Then when an employee gets a chance the meat, milk, cheese gets put right back on the shelf.

Their customer service is horrendous, and the time it takes to get through the 8 active checkout lines (despite having 35 lanes available) is slow as can be. So, they got "PRICE" right. Its the cheapest in the world for goods. Did they get "GOOD" right? That's debatable. My idea of good is generally higher than most. Did they get "FAST" right? Not if you consider standing in line for 20 minutes at 1am on a Tuesday "FAST". This is the largest business in the world and they are certainly making a profit. Did they even get two out of three right? Lets look at Mcdonalds. They are cheap, can't deny that. They are fast, can't deny that either. Are they good? Not in my opinion. This is the most successful and largest fast food chain in the world. Did they get 3 out of 3 right? Nope.

You're going to have a hard time changing my mind. I minored in business, majored in political science, and have run half a dozen successful business from small restaurants to large scale developments, to scuba instruction to harvesting organs for research.

You want justification for the markup at the LDS? We offer something an online store can't offer. A face and a name that comes with great customer service. You call me at 2am for a dive on Sunday morning and I'll drive to the shop open the doors and get your fills, or your spear gun tip. Do we make a fortune on air fills and spear gun tips? Not a chance. But we are here because we love you. We have been here for 35+ years. We'll be here for 35 more. Our business model works. We are debt free. We have a loyal customer base. We make a small profit. We've watched 8 shops come and go in the past 3 years, but we're doing great. Our customers love us. Our product lines love us. We pay our bills and make enough money to survive. We don't get rich. We survive doing something we love. Which I believe is exactly where we should be financially.

But, all that said, staying on track. I truly believe the instructor in the OP's post ripped you off. I believe it was calculated, planned, and crooked. I hope he gets a beating. -- Honestly, if you were in FL, i'd give you the written test, let you demonstrate the skills, and sign your card.