SSI Class - Failed

[ErikNYC]

i totally disagree with that line of thinking

under normal circumstances if you can't learn within the regular schedule you need to pay for additional classes
not any different than hiring a tutor if you can't grasp the material during regular school classes

I believe a shop should allow their students to retake the course once within six months or so.

 

[t4e]

I believe a shop should allow their students to retake the course once within six months or so.

would be nice and even for a small additional price would still be welcome, but its up to each individual instructor to decide and not to be expected

my point is it that it should not be expected of an instructor to be "obligated" to get everyone up to par for the checkout dives and if they don't then offer free additional training
what happens in university if you have to repeat a year?...you pay all over again

 

[Superlyte27]

I believe a shop should allow their students to retake the course once within six months or so.

They can re-take the course a week later if they want. They just have to pay for it.

I'm astonished so many people think that our time has no value. We provide an OW class. We put everything we have into. It costs roughly 40 hours of time. And at the end of that 40 hours, we make X amount of dollars. You're saying that if YOU the student don't get it right, we the instructors should eat the cost? Why is that normal to you? What other business in the world operates that way?

Training is purchased, certification is earned. You have signed up for OW, Nitrox, Cave, Wreck, etc. etc. etc. This class involves 5 days of training. If you go over 5 days, each additional day costs $200 bucks. At least that's the way my circle of peeps operate.

 

[redacted]

They can re-take the course a week later if they want. They just have to pay for it.

I'm astonished so many people think that our time has no value. We provide an OW class. We put everything we have into. It costs roughly 40 hours of time. And at the end of that 40 hours, we make X amount of dollars. You're saying that if YOU the student don't get it right, we the instructors should eat the cost? Why is that normal to you? What other business in the world operates that way?

Training is purchased, certification is earned. You have signed up for OW, Nitrox, Cave, Wreck, etc. etc. etc. This class involves 5 days of training. If you go over 5 days, each additional day costs $200 bucks. At least that's the way my circle of peeps operate.

Is this really the message that is most important for your customers to understand?

Remember how this thread started? An instructor (dive shop) took a full class of student's $$$ and produced no certifications in an OW class. And they seem to be left with no recourse. The industry has little to no oversight and it is not without its scam artists.

 

[Shasta_man]

Wow, the shop was so bad on just getting fills, that he went and bought his own compressor.

While I can understand that unlimited extra time is certainly unreasonable, I can also see that their learning the class is a combo of the effort of the student and the effort of the instructor. Who is to say that the instructor wasn't poor and led to poor training and not passing? I've had many school teachers who knew their stuff inside and out but were very poor teachers for various reasons. Or an unscrupulous instructor who does exactly what is being suggested here: deliberately not passing students so they cough up some more cash. From the comments from various instructors here, there is a clear division of some where not passing is unheard of, and extra time is thrown in, and others where not passing is already considered and perhaps not unusual and extra charges are normal.

 

[Superlyte27]

Yes, that is the single most important thing they need to understand, that training is purchased and certification is earned. I haven't had a student that wasn't okay with that yet. If you want a class that you can't possibly fail, it's doubtful you'll learn much, but those instructors are all over the place. Go find one. I want students who are serious about their training.

And in response to your second paragraph... Do more research. Don't shop price, shop experience.
Warren Buffet said when someone comes to him to do business he picks that candidate on two things.... Does he like the guy and Does he trust the guy. If either of those things are missing, the numbers don't matter.

Pick an instructor you trust and like. If you're picking him on price, you just might get screwed.

At any rate, I'm in agreement that the instructor the OP dealt with is screwing people.

 

[yarik83]

Whoa whoa whoa... so many assumptions in your post there...

Scuba instruction is a career choice for some and a second supplementary career choice for others. Nobody just randomly decides to become a scuba instructor because they were bored and just felt like spending few years of their life and thousands of dollars.

You can have 9000 dives under your belt and have certified 30000000 students... the premise is still the same... people come to you to get certified. As a teacher you have a certain moral obligation. More importantly your craft is to TEACH. Process of teaching involves working with easy and difficult people. Just like school and college teachers educate students there should be a measure by which your services are evaluated. If you can not teach people then you have failed as a teacher. If you can not teach people because they are not willing to learn... that is a whole different bowl of soup. Your moral responsibility as a teacher in that case is to pull that student aside and lay it out on the table:
#1 you are a student who is struggling and I do not think you are going to pass because.....
#2 I am going to provide you a refund and or provide you with a partial refund based on amount of time already spent at the following rate....

As a teacher who charges for his services you need to be very transparent about financial aspects of your craft.

You have mentioned that you are spending 40 hours of your time and that you would refuse to provide additional training at no cost. Lets dissect that statement. If you were a salaried employee... as most americans are... you would be getting lets say $50,000 per year. You would be getting paid the same regardless if you were overloaded or having just enough work load. You would be working anywhere between 40-60 hours per week and still get paid the same (unless you are salaried non exempt earning overtime). So... whereas a person earning a salary earning 1 pay... you by definition earn pay x number of students. You have 1 student then your time is worth $X. If you have 5 students then it would be $5X. By saying that you refuse to meet client needs you are indeed supporting a stigma that follows local dive shops. I have no idea what the fail rate is for scuba students but if the number is more than 0% then good business practice would be to charge students for your time at a predetermined rate and refund rest of the fee.

For example if you charged $400 for your 2 week course and student is unpassable and you know it after day 3... then you should prorate services given and refund $320.

I guess what I am trying to say... if ANY trainer intentionally waits until the very last second to tell their students that they failed (with no prior indication) then there mischief in place where instructor is committing fraud. Last time I checked fraud is a criminal offense.

 

[Superlyte27]

First of all, MOST americans are paid hourly, not salaried. So that's mistake 1.
Secondly, Have you been to college? I went to a few. 3 credit hours was exactly that. 3 credit hours. The professor didn't give me 5 credit hours for the cost of three credit hours. Granted, the college offered tutoring some. And you could pay for a tutor.

My students will know as soon as I know that they are failing. I lay out what I expect on day one. If you do XYZ you will not pass. However, you pay DAY1. There are no refunds. You have paid for 5 days. You are getting 5 days. You can have the 5 days now, or you can come back when you think you are ready to make up the remaining 2, 3, 4 that you didn't finish.

It has nothing to do with the ability to teach. Some things simply can't be taught in 5 days. I expect a great frog kick, buoyancy, maturity in my cave classes. If you can't demonstrate that before the end of class, you just wasted a bunch of money. I warn every student before they pay that deposit (which is also non-refundable) that if their core skills aren't top notch, don't take the class. Often they insist on taking it. My job is teach them to cave dive, not to teach them to OW dive when they come to cave class. But you know that going in.

This isn't like when I build a house. You come to me to build your house. I tell you the cost of the house is 100k. At the end of the job, I can promise you that your house won't exceed 100k. If I screw up, I eat it for missing your budget. That's completely different from when I remodel a house. When I remodel a house I tell you that my price is $50 per man hour plus all materials. If it takes 200 hours, or 1000 hours, you better be ready to write the check.

When I teach you, you are paying for X amount of hours. X amount of hours might cost you $500. If you can't get squared away in X amount of hours, you don't pass. Simple as that. Extra hours cost more money.

*edit*
It is structured like a business because IT IS A BUSINESS.
If I run this like a hobby, it'll treat me like a hobby. If I'm not covering my costs, my time, my education I run the chance of being resentful, burned out, or unhappy. I'm in it for the long haul. If you look at the technical instructors who have been doing business for 30+ years, you'll see they adapted to this early in the game for the same exact reasons.

 

[DevonDiver]

Scuba instruction is a career choice for some and a second supplementary career choice for others. Nobody just randomly decides to become a scuba instructor because they were bored and just felt like spending few years of their life and thousands of dollars.

Actually, places like Thailand are full of instructors just like that..

As a teacher you have a certain moral obligation. More importantly your craft is to TEACH..... If you can not teach people then you have failed as a teacher.

Because... of course... everyone passes every college exam, nobody fails a driving test, and everyone that takes up a sport has the potential to be an olympian... right?

Teaching is one thing. Learning is another. The ability of a student to learn, to develop, to 'make the grade' is not dictated by the capability of the teacher.

If you can not teach people because they are not willing to learn... that is a whole different bowl of soup.

No different that if the student doesn't have the right physical or psychological make-up... the ability to learn practical tasks, to operate in a water environment comfortably, to deal with stress effectively.... many bowls of soup... all of them dictate learning progression and speed.

Your moral responsibility as a teacher in that case is to pull that student aside and lay it out on the table:
#1 you are a student who is struggling and I do not think you are going to pass because.....
#2 I am going to provide you a refund and or provide you with a partial refund based on amount of time already spent at the following rate....

On a 4 dive course, there's not many opportunities for that. Maybe it'd save someone the cost of 1-2 dives... but typically, IME, people tend to 'spurt' in the later stages of OW training, as comfort develops.

As a teacher who charges for his services you need to be very transparent about financial aspects of your craft.

So lets be transparent - for all those dreamers who think OW training should be a limitless contract with all of the financial repercussions loaded on the instructor....

You pay somewhere between $250 and $600 for an OW course..

The training provider pays:

... for pool hire, per hour
... for equipment purchase, maintenance and up-keep
... insurance premiums
... agency memberships
... for compressor, along with maintenance, for filling every cylinder
... for boat purchase or hire
... boat gasoline
... boat maintenance
... boat insurance
... for electricity
... for hire/rent on a classroom facility, with a DVD player, IT capability
... for student manuals, DVDs and certification costs
... for their own training and continued professional development

For those who have NO IDEA about the business of teaching scuba diving - let me assure you that instructors don't make much money. Without an astute mind and some business/financial acumen... then it's more than possible to make a loss.

If instructors make a loss, then they'll quit the industry. The dilettantes, hobbyists and beach-bums won't mind... but the valuable core of highly experienced, professional instructors... who have families, responsibilities, bills to pay, kids to put through college.... they'll go.

If you were a salaried employee... as most americans are... you would be getting lets say $50,000 per year.

Probably 1% of scuba instructors earn anywhere close to that..

You have 1 student then your time is worth $X. If you have 5 students then it would be $5X. By saying that you refuse to meet client needs you are indeed supporting a stigma that follows local dive shops. I have no idea what the fail rate is for scuba students but if the number is more than 0% then good business practice would be to charge students for your time at a predetermined rate and refund rest of the fee.

That's an overly-simplistic way to look at it, and fails to account for certain realities. Time is money.

If an instructor could "charge for time at a predetermined rate"... then they could just as easily charge for extensions, as provide refunds. Isn't that what we're discussing in this thread?

I don't like bargain basement scuba courses (like Groupon deals) for exactly that reason. As I've already spelled out in previous posts - they shift the business model to one of quantity, not quality. Stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap.

Sounds like people want to pay cheap, but receive quality.

The sort of person who walks into McDonalds, pays a $1 for a burger and then complains because they weren't asked how they'd like it cooked...

For example if you charged $400 for your 2 week course and student is unpassable and you know it after day 3... then you should prorate services given and refund $320.

Assuming you can determine the student is 'unpassable' and are willing/eager to abandon every one, at the first opportunity, who shows the least likelihood of achieving the required standards in the minimum time-scale.

Then end result would be a massive up-turn in people washing out of scuba training, probably never to re-engage,... and being denied the opportunity to do something they'd otherwise love... simply because the instructor had a financial model which involved failing people at the first hurdle, for fear of losing money...

I guess what I am trying to say... if ANY trainer intentionally waits until the very last second to tell their students that they failed (with no prior indication) then there mischief in place where instructor is committing fraud. Last time I checked fraud is a criminal offense.

Performance requirements for skills/dives/theory are all clearly stated in the materials given to students. That makes your argument null and void.

Check-out dives are assessment dives. People can fail those assessments, regardless of past performance - under different circumstances (such as in a classroom, or swimming pool).

In the case of this thread.... the instructor cut the class (offered extension) AT AN EARLY STAGE. Doesn't that agree with your statement? The instructor DIDN'T wait until the last minute, before failing the class... he made his decision early... at the mid-point in training.

Again... I will reiterate what I've stated in several posts already - what matters is whether you sell a COURSE or sell a CERTIFICATION. No legitimate scuba instructor can, or does, sells certifications (other than MSD)... as scuba training certification is performance related.

There is nothing unethical, or fraudulent, in charging for training on a 'per time' basis, nor to sell a 'course' which is a pre-determined 'block' of training time - based upon completion of minimum requirements and the knowledge that the training time provided is reasonably sufficient for the 'average' diver to meet the performance standards.

Where the failure lies, is in the fact that this state of affairs... this 'contract of service' is not effectively communicated to students - who, consequently have a mis-appreciation of what they're getting.

Is this really the message that is most important for your customers to understand?

For me... yes, it is EXACTLY the message I want my customers to understand. My training is performance related, not attendance. I provide excellent training, but certification is not automatic. If the student does not meet the performance related criteria within the time they have paid for, then they have three choices; (1) pay for more time, (2) abandon the course or (3) take a referral elsewhere.

Again, for me... this is a quality management issue. My students know that they get what they pay for. When they get certified, they know they earned it. When I certify someone, I know that it is on the basis of ability, and not due to financial considerations. That's as fair as it gets... and as honest as it gets.

Remember how this thread started? An instructor (dive shop) took a full class of student's $$$ and produced no certifications in an OW class. And they seem to be left with no recourse. The industry has little to no oversight and it is not without its scam artists.

If you read the thread - you'll see that the student's recourse has been communicated to them - i.e. contact the agency (SSI) and let them investigate whether they were withheld from progressing due to performance standards issues, or whether it was a subjective/un-supported decision on behalf of the instructor.

The industry does have oversight. That 'oversight' isn't Scubaboard... it is making the small effort to send a letter/email to the relevant agency... who will initiate a formal, pre-existing, Quality Assurance process to resolve the issue.

 

[Superlyte27]

Devon's post about Mcdonalds reminds me of a sign that I read once. And it's probably the best sign I've ever seen.

Good
Fast
Cheap


Pick any two.