Fatality Cabo San Lucas March 3

[johnZdiver]

I have always been a supporter of PADI and look to them for advice and guidlines. So when Sunshine Dive and Charter was dropped from the padi web site this week it must be for a good reason.

 

[DandyDon]

Hi KC-Mike and welcome to SB if you are still with us. Some of us cynics wonder when a brand new member joins to post on a controversal topic, if the operator asked them to or if they just found the thread from a google search?

We do discuss operators and our experiences here, good & bad, and nice to hear that you liked yours. I do not know how the lady's family got the idea that it was CO poisoning exactly, why the funeral home claims that to them, what the qualifications and tests were, etc. I'm sure many of us would like to know more but facts are hard to find.

Even the best tank filling operations leave themselves open tho when they ignore 21 century & affordable technology....
1: By not using Clear or similar CO monitors with auto-shut off on their compressors, and
2: By not supplying personal CO analyzers for customers to confirm that their air is clean. If they are proud of their quality, why not invited examination?

The company might be innocent for all I know, and I don't have faith in official investigations there. It's best to always seem As pure as Caesar's wife.

I have always been a supporter of PADI and look to them for advice and guidlines. So when Sunshine Dive and Charter was dropped from the padi web site this week it must be for a good reason.

You know, I don't - but that is interesting.

Now that I think about it - I wish that DAN, Padi, and others were more proactive than reactive on the subject...
1: DAN could warn divers to be leery of operators who do not embrace 21st centery & affordable technology by offering personal CO tank testers, and
2: Padi and others could warn their associated sites that they need to use CO monitors and offer analyzers to attract customers, rather than scare them away.

The sport developed before current CO technology, but like dive computers, it is time...!!

 

[Ayisha]

...However I do find it very irresponsible to assume a specific cause including CO Poisoning from thousands of miles away and name a specific dive shop that may or may not have been involved unless there are facts or evidence supporting that. If there are any facts or evidence, I have not seen or found them in any story, article or posts that provide details on them.

The dive shop was named in the media reports. It has not been maligned here in any way.

Recall that the victim's cousin, mother and DG may be able to attest to where the fills were gotten from as well as to whom the tanks belonged according to labelling on the tanks. The victim's cousin and DG have relayed their illness while on that dive, including nausea, dizziness and chest pain, with the DG having to be helped onto the boat and collapsing. The victim's cousin also relayed the victim Ronda's proclamations that she was having trouble breathing.

The news video previously linked to here stated that preliminary tests showed the tanks were "full" of CO, the dive shop was closed, equipment seized and an investigation was ongoing.

IMHO, this thread has barely focused on the dive shop itself. It has focussed on another life needlessly lost. While the media has reported the above and more, most of us would like to see definitive information of the contents of those tanks, if we can. Quite often we don't get that detailed information, and we figure out the what-if's and what we can do about them. Whether it ends up being the correct cause of an accident or sequence of events, we learn from the potential solutions.

Since there are several people close to the aforementioned dive shop on this thread, would anyone care to tell us why the shop was just removed from the PADI website (assuming it was as someone mentioned)?

 

[DandyDon]

Since there are several people close to the aforementioned dive shop on this thread, would anyone care to tell us why the shop was just removed from the PADI website (assuming it was as someone mentioned)?

Sure, we'd appreciate any news - not just recommendations.

 

[Ayisha]

I have sent an email to the Alberta Underwater Council to see if they investigate the death of Albertans outside of Alberta and if they publish an Incident Report similar to the Ontario Underwater Council here. They have made some statements to the press about this accident, so perhaps they do investigate outside of the province. If they don't publish accident reports, I asked if the cause of death has been confirmed and if they could tell us what they could.

I sent them a link to this thread and invited them to participate as well. Hopefully the AUC will be able to enlighten us further on this poor woman's passing.

 

[KC_Mike]

While they may be welcome, like most in this situation they may be advised about commenting on a public forum, just as you would be if you were going through a divorce or were involved in a lawsuit. They are caught up, wrong or right, in a very serious matter, so if you comment was meant to be an indictment for them not posting here to defend themselves, it is misguided at best.

Dandy Don, while this is my first post, a few moments of glancing at my join date would tell you I have been a member of scuba board since March of 2009. I have tried to post several times in the past, but for whatever reason have been unable to (I wasn't even sure my last post would go through) and have always enjoyed reading the different posts. Either that or I can manipulate the join date or am a clairvoyant that knew this was going to happen and joined 3 years prior. It is apparent you are very, very active on Scuba Board and have a passion for CO testing. I also reviewed you profile and looked for your occupation which is and I quote:

"Occupation:
Like I would put that on a public, online statement?"

This leads me to believe that you are involved with CO monitoring or testing with a financial interest of some sort. Either that or you have a investment interest in the same. If this is not true please let us know your occupation and all of your investment interests so we can know for sure you don't speak from any financial gain point of view. This is more then the shop or DM/tour guide leading the group has been asked to produce. How affordable is the 21st technology for CO testing you talk about. Can you quote prices for what if would cost a shop to implement this technology? Can you tell us the name any shops that currently implement and use this technology?

Why hasn't anyone asked the DM/tour guide for fill slips proving that the dive shop filled the tanks? Has anyone emailed or called the shop or asked for information or confirm that they filled the tanks? My guess is no. If anyone had cared to theu would have searched for the dive shop on Facebook and found that they did indeed did deny they were involved in any way with this incident, as they have when contacted by phone or email. Most of you didn't, but just assumed that they did not. Stories are out that they had been shut down, but as far as I know they continue to operate today (Ayisha). Why they have been removed by the PADI website I can't say for sure. I will attempt to find out and respond with that information. However I would guess if you were a registered DM/Instuctor/shop and were named or accused in this type of case, the easiest thing for PADI to do would be to remove you to avoid any issue as endorsing you as a PADI shop. In addition it is interesting to see how many people "trust" PADI on the issue of removing the shop when PADI doesn't even require a certified shop to have any tests for CO (johnZdiver).

Compared to some of the equipment we as divers pay a decent amount of money for (LED lights, wireless Computers, dry suites to dive in 60 degree water) the cost of some of these CO testers are very reasonable. However, at least currently, this is a personal responsibility. No one forces you to dive, fill tanks, or denies you the ability to test your air. Just as no one denies you the ability to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle, wear a seat belt in a car, or carrier along a food thermometer or bacteria testing kit when you go out to eat to make sure you have no contamination in your food at restaurants. If you choose to use this story to compel you to purchase a CO tester for diving, then I am glad it did. If the story confirms you should avoid diving in places you don't trust, then I am glad this lesson was learned. However we all take risk in the world of diving as it is unnatural for us to immerse ourselves several meters below the surface of water for long periods of time breathing from an artificial lung.

I would be interested to see if it is possible to do a poll with the question being if it cost you $25 to fill a tank with guaranteed testing for pollutants and CO as opposed to $7 to fill without, how many would opt for the additional cost? This may be a result of our communities own insistence on low cost fills.

Ayisha please read through all the threads again. Just the fact a shop that has denied any involvement was named at all is enough. I agree that many of the posts have dealt with fills that have CO, however the shop has been implicitly implicated in the issue at hand which is not fair. I also wonder why there isn't more attention focused on why a dive team of 3, each a dive buddy, would leave someone along at 23 meters, especially if that diver expressed they weren't feeling well? The first thing I learned is that you don't leave anyone alone at any depth by themselves no matter what, no matter the experience of the diver. Why would two surface and leave the other one behind, at any depth, especially 23 meters? As I mentioned in my previous post the most important trait any diver can learn is that it is their right to call a dive at any time for any reason, without question, and for all buddies/team to surface together. If that had been done, the whole situation may have been avoided, which is what this forum is all about.

I have no finical or business interest in the dive shop in question at all, only what I can offer you as empirical experiences with the shop itself. I have no issue providing any detail to anyone that would like to request it.

When we lose someone close to our lives our instincts are often to find someone to blame, while often the truth may be that an unfortunate accident has occurred and it was our time doing what we loved. I hope that if this happens to me my family will do the right thing and simply say he died doing what he loved to do with the risk he accepted, as opposed to trying to place the blame on anything or anyone in particular. If my death ever helps improve or educate the community then I accept that, but I hope it comes without involving blame of a particular person, shop, or reason without absolute proof. We have a choice to not take such as risk, such as diving, and increase our chance of survival. However I will always live by the motto that "I would rather die trying to live at what I love then live trying not to die at anything at all".

Mike

 

[DandyDon]

Damnit! I just spent 30 minutes replying to Mike, and I knew of the 2:30am CDT maintenance period - but I didn't look. Now I have lost everything I typed. Eh, it was too wordry anyway...

I'm not going to attempt all that again. Just explain the basics...

1: Nope, I have absolutely no financial interest or reward possible in CO monitoring or testing. I've spent more than I wanted to on this, but I am glad I did.

2: $20/tank more to have safe air is ridiculous. Most resort fill stations fill enough tanks to cover $1,000 monitoring units for pennies/tank, and any operator can afford $300 for a personal analyzer - then make it available to customers with pride in their quality. What worked for businesses in 2001 may not work now, as now we do have new and affordable technology in place and manufacturers who want to supply. The standards have been in place longer, but the abilities are much easier now.

3: I'm not out to blame anyone here, but I do question if any protections were in place - or were they all just using the old, worn claim "We've never had a problem before"...?

I hope that if this happens to me my family will do the right thing and simply say he died doing what he loved to do with the risk he accepted, as opposed to trying to place the blame on anything or anyone in particular.

That's fine, unless the fill station or operator drags their feet in the 20th century and ignores today's risks and affordable protection.

 

[daniel1948]

Mike: The tone of this thread has not been to blame anyone, but rather to ask questions: Who filled the tanks and what was in them? A couple of posters also asked why the dive shop accused by the family was removed from the PADI web site. Questions, not accusations.

As a second issue, since the family asserted that CO was the cause of death, the thread has discussed ways of reducing CO risk: Testing during the fill, testing by divers, and the idea of CO testers at dive shops in the same way that O2 testers are provided by dive shops that offer nitrox.

As for costs: Apparently a portable CO analyser good for a year costs under $400, or about a dollar a day. Your question about a $25 charge for tested air is rather excessive. I would happily pay an extra $5 for a thoroughly tested tank, or $2 per fill for the use of a portable CO analyser with which I could test my tanks. This would more than cover the dive shop's expense, and is more efficient and cheaper for the once-a-year recreational vacation diver than spending $350 for a device that's only used for one week a year and needs a $150 service every two years.

The question of CO testing is indirectly related to the subject of the thread because it has been accused in the death of the diver, but is a legitimate diving issue on its own, regardless. I do not know Dandy Don or anything about him, but I take his arguments on their own merits. He denies having any financial interest, but even if his arguments were made by an Analox sales rep, those arguments would stand or fall on their own merits, regardless of who makes them. CO poisoning seems to be an extremely rare event in recreational diving, but the consequences are severe when it happens. Sort of like house fires. So the topic is a legitimate one for discussion. The argument can be (and has been) made that CO poisoning is too rare an event to justify the cost. It's really a matter of risk assessment, risk tolerance, and the cost and effectiveness of countermeasures. Personally, I have not decided whether it's worth $350 to me given the very low risk and how few times I dive in a year. But it's a legitimate question for discussion, and I feel strongly that there's no excuse for dive shops to not offer testers, given that in this case the cost is spread so thin as to be a dollar a day, or four cents per tank for a shop that fills 25 tanks a day.

This was a tragic event, and we'd all like to know what was in the tanks, who filled them, and what could have been done to avoid it. I personally feel that the best solution would be for all dive shops to have CO analysers and allow their clients to use them, for which I'd happily pay a fee that allowed the shop a 100% profit on their purchase of the analyser, or $1 per tank, whichever is more.

 

[WSOPFAN]

Ayisha please read through all the threads again. Just the fact a shop that has denied any involvement was named at all is enough. I agree that many of the posts have dealt with fills that have CO, however the shop has been implicitly implicated in the issue at hand which is not fair. I also wonder why there isn't more attention focused on why a dive team of 3, each a dive buddy, would leave someone along at 23 meters, especially if that diver expressed they weren't feeling well? The first thing I learned is that you don't leave anyone alone at any depth by themselves no matter what, no matter the experience of the diver. Why would two surface and leave the other one behind, at any depth, especially 23 meters? As I mentioned in my previous post the most important trait any diver can learn is that it is their right to call a dive at any time for any reason, without question, and for all buddies/team to surface together. If that had been done, the whole situation may have been avoided, which is what this forum is all about.


Mike

If I remember right early on it was explained that the dive op who took them out is NOT the op who filled the tanks.

Why would you leave anyone at depth? Both the cousin and dive guide commented that they were in distress also and barely made it out of the water alive. I am fairly sure they were a little busy saving their own lives to worry about anyone else at depth, after all the first rule of diving is save yourself first then others.

The news reports claim the police are investigating whatever that means. The husband also verbally stated preliminary toxicology reports indicated her tank was loaded with CO. I think that is plenty of an explanation for me YMMV. Feel free to try and contact him for actual factual proof of that if none of these comments or stories are good enough.

 

[DandyDon]

Thanks Daniel. I was up & on much too late for my time zone....

CO poisoning seems to be an extremely rare event in recreational diving...

That depends. DAN does admit that they have no idea how many drownings were caused by CO hits, how many clinical hits were just not reported to them, how many subclinical hits were shrugged off as traveler's-flu, etc. The US standard has long been a 10 ppm max while some countries are requiring maxes of 3 or 5, in part because the effect multiplies when you breathe it at depth, in part because of the binding properties, and more - and I've found readings over 5 ppm to be pretty common actually. I fumbled with my early testing from a make-do unit and no one to tell me how at first so I only got testing proficient a few trips ago, but I have turned a boat when I found 17! My last trip was with the new Analox portable analyzer and that was so much easier, and reassuring that the operator of the 17 tank had taken notice in that she used a different supplier: no readings. You and a buddy can get it for a little over $300, free shipping, and it'll last at least 2 years without service - much longer if not used every day and kept in a pelican box or similar.

Charging an extra dollar/tank for testing would fail. Testing every tank can be boring after a few days of a trip when the tests are clean but it is all too easy for one tank in a lot to be dangerous so I keep it up. Most divers haven't read as much and will take a very erroneous attitude of "if yours is clean then I'm sure mine is" and skip the extra charge optional testing. No, the suppliers need to spend pennies a tank to ensure their air is clean, and the operators need to 50c/day so customers can confirm that. How long is may take for these practices to become common even in the Caribbean and Mexico is anyone's guess.

It was recently suggested that the risk was negligible, and a Canadian fireman with extensive experience on the subject offered good reason to think the risks are around 3-5%...

The risk of CO poisoning may be much higher than we'd like to admit basically because no one is doing a carboxyhemoglobin (COHb) in all dive fatalities, however if you look at the Dr. Caruso’s UHMS retrospective dive fatality abstract posted earlier 3 percent of the divers whose COHb concentration was checked at death had an anomalous level. Three percent is certainly well above the frequency one would expect for a potentially lethal contaminant that is "barely quantifiable" and far greater than the risk of dying from DCS.

We can also try and assess the frequency of CO contamination in our breathing air from another direction and that is by asking the compressed gas analytical laboratories what their frequency of test failure is for CO at the 10 ppm level. These labs receive thousands of dive air samples a month from fill stations all over the globe so this number would be the best real-time indicator as to the extent of the contamination problem.

This question was posed to the labs by Bob Rossier, an ex-NASA life support systems engineer, in 1998 and 2004 and reported in the DAN Diver Alert magazine. I have attached his 2004 DAN Diver Alert article which indicates that when Lawrence Factor and TRI Laboratories, two of the largest compressed gas laboratories in the USA, were contacted and asked the frequency of CO contamination in dive air alone (fire service compressed air has a CO failure rate about 0.1 %) both labs reported independently in 2004 that the failure rate was 3 to 5 percent, an incredibly high percentage considering the high toxicity of this contaminant and potential for death in the underwater environment. In 1998 these same lab directors were asked the CO failure rate in diver compressed air and reported it was 5 to 8 percent so things have improved somewhat since that time but not by much.

The point is though that if someone told you that there was a 5 percent chance the tank of dive air you might use could contain CO at a concentration above 10 ppm I think you would be hard pressed to call that "barely quantifiable" in fact a rationale person would request that their fill station install a CO monitor or that the individual diver would purchase a personal CO analyzer.

It does not surprise me at all that we are hearing of more and more CO-contaminated tanks plus CO-related injuries and deaths as the awareness of the problem and in-field tank testing has increased 100 fold with the availability personal CO analyzers. In the end the frequency of these CO incidents in the field should reflect the rate of CO contamination identified by the labs testing the compressed air from the same field on a daily basis. Only when a COHb concentration is done in all dive fatalities will we also see the frequency of anomalous COHb levels trend towards that 3 percent level.

In 2009 I spoke with these same lab directors again and they confirmed that nothing had changed since 2004 indicating that we in the dive community still have a 3 to 5 percent chance of receiving a tank of compressed air with CO contamination > 10 ppm. The samples sent to Lawrence Factor and TRI come from all over the world so this is a global dive industry problem but worse in those geographical regions where high ambient temperatures conspire to allow poor compressor installations to overheat and intermittently burn (autoignite) the compressor oil.

If it was reported that that our national blood supply contained HIV or Hep C contamination at a rate of 3 to 5 percent not only would the population be up in arms and demand rigorous testing to eliminate that risk, but I doubt you find to many potential transfusion recipients cavalierly saying this was a negligible risk and that they would rather forgo HIV or Hep C testing and just accept the risk of contracting a potentially lethal disease.Yet sadly in the dive industry that is exactly what we still hear today despite the facts indicating the CO contamination risk is quantifiable in our dive air and runs about 3 to 5 percent.