BP/W banned in DM Course

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When we met to discuss the training, I asked him to bring in his equipment as I had not dove or trained with him before. When we met, I could see he was a BP&W user and told him up front, that if he elected to do his DMC with me, that I'd want him to use the same type gear the OW students use. If he wanted, he could use one of my spare jacket style BCDs.

I did not ask him to use it during his Rescue, but during that training, after he had gotten in and out of his BP&W a "few" times, he switched to an extra BCD with the quick releases. I think a little note formed in his head.

But as a DMC helping with Rescue, I'd be asking him to use one of my BCDs.

So your guy will be perfect to save anyone.. as long as they don't wear a BP/W?

I would have thought a better challenge would be to get the diver out of any configuration. I've done most of my courses in a wetsuit, but for my IDC I had to 'rescue' a candidate while he was wearing his drysuit. Which meant I had to remember to remove his drysuit hose, a factor which I had never come into contact with before then. Was I supposed to complain the examiner that I was a warm water diver? Imagine if I had got a candidate in 1 piece harness? I would have still had to make the rescue scenario.
 
Bob and Jim,

:gans:​

There are all sorts of gear I bet you would frown on any DMC using. Diving helmet, rebreather, sidemount, Spare air, full face mask and the list can go on. While explaining a 7' hose is intuitive for a caver/techie, it's not for an OW instructor who only does recreational diving.

Part of the problem are the myths that surround a lot of the gear we use. It's not unusual or unreasonable for an instructor to buy into those myths. This has very little bearing on their suitability to train others to dive in an OW environment.

As usual Pete, you take things to a rather extreme degree. I had this discussion with my course director some years ago ... when he quoted the standard that stipulates instructors must wear similar equipment to what the students are wearing. His position was that if the students are in standard BCDs and regulators, so must the instructor and assistants.

So I took the question to NAUI HQ. They said that wasn't the intent ... the intent was to prevent instructors from showing up in rebreathers, sidemount, etc ... equipment that was SO DIFFERENT that you could not demonstrate the requisite skills.

This is not the case in a BP/W ... or even a long hose. FWIW - if I'm training students using a standard BCD and regulator ... I will wear those things. I make no such requirements of my DM's ... in fact, I encourage them to wear something different, so I can explain the differences to the students, and show them the differences in how this equipment is used. Realistically, they're going to be seeing this equipment at the dive sites ... and probably diving with people who use it ... shortly after certification. So why WOULDN'T I want them to get exposed to it?

It's interesting to me that these instructors who have an aversion to BP/W ... which is just another style of BCD ... have no problem with students showing up in a Zeagle Ranger or Dive Rite Transpac. It's interesting that instructors who object to a long hose have no problem with students using an inline backup reg.

Why the aversion to one form of "different" equipment, but not another? Mostly it boils down to what they can sell at the dive shop.

I want my students to be able to recover their regulator ... if they can perform that task using the equipment they are wearing, that is functionally the intent of the standards. I want my students to be able to do a controlled ascent while sharing air ... if they can perform that task using the equipment they are wearing, that is the intent of the standards. I want them to be able to remove and replace their rig ... both underwater (in case of entanglement) and on the surface (to prepare to board a small boat) ... if they can perform those tasks using the equipment they are wearing, that is the intent of the standards. Exposing them to how to do so using different equipment goes above and beyond the standards ... I see no downside at all to such exposure.

Students are not as easily confused as some folks claim they would be. I have found nothing but benefits to exposing them to different choices in dive equipment.

Oh ... and FWIW ... once I'm sidemount certified, I will probably expose them to that, too. I won't attempt to teach in it ... but I will make an effort to show them what it is, how it works, and under what circumstances someone might want to consider using it. I see no downside to doing so ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Imagine if I had got a candidate in 1 piece harness? I would have still had to make the rescue scenario.

... a good, sharp knife works really well. This is, in fact, a scenario in my Rescue class ... students actually cut one of my assistants out of a one-piece harness. I have a bunch of old, worn, harnesses that I save specifically for this purpose.

I also have them rescuing divers in doubles ... even students who have never worn, nor are ever likely to wear doubles. Why? Well, first off, because the technique is different, and secondly, because there are sufficient local divers in doubles that there is a finite chance that they may have to use that knowledge someday.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
As usual Pete, you take things to a rather extreme degree.
Bob,

First, thanks for the "as usual" statement. The aspersions always helps a conversation.

The problem is not with the gear. Obviously, I dive sidemount and use two long hoses when I do. Would I allow a DMC to help with a class in that gear? Probably not. Especially so if they are wanting to help demonstrate skills. Finding your regs with a long hose and bungee is distinctly different than with the traditional hose set up. Now, mind you, I have contemplated teaching the long hose right from the get go and then this would make sense and having a DMC in the traditional configuration would not be appropriate.

The Shenanigans is about your assertion that the instructor is incompetent because he doesn't want to do this.
 
As usual Pete, you take things to a rather extreme degree. I had this discussion with my course director some years ago ... when he quoted the standard that stipulates instructors must wear similar equipment to what the students are wearing. His position was that if the students are in standard BCDs and regulators, so must the instructor and assistants.

So I took the question to NAUI HQ. They said that wasn't the intent ... the intent was to prevent instructors from showing up in rebreathers, sidemount, etc ... equipment that was SO DIFFERENT that you could not demonstrate the requisite skills.

This is not the case in a BP/W ... or even a long hose. FWIW - if I'm training students using a standard BCD and regulator ... I will wear those things. I make no such requirements of my DM's ... in fact, I encourage them to wear something different, so I can explain the differences to the students, and show them the differences in how this equipment is used. Realistically, they're going to be seeing this equipment at the dive sites ... and probably diving with people who use it ... shortly after certification. So why WOULDN'T I want them to get exposed to it?

It's interesting to me that these instructors who have an aversion to BP/W ... which is just another style of BCD ... have no problem with students showing up in a Zeagle Ranger or Dive Rite Transpac. It's interesting that instructors who object to a long hose have no problem with students using an inline backup reg.

Why the aversion to one form of "different" equipment, but not another? Mostly it boils down to what they can sell at the dive shop.

I want my students to be able to recover their regulator ... if they can perform that task using the equipment they are wearing, that is functionally the intent of the standards. I want my students to be able to do a controlled ascent while sharing air ... if they can perform that task using the equipment they are wearing, that is the intent of the standards. I want them to be able to remove and replace their rig ... both underwater (in case of entanglement) and on the surface (to prepare to board a small boat) ... if they can perform those tasks using the equipment they are wearing, that is the intent of the standards. Exposing them to how to do so using different equipment goes above and beyond the standards ... I see no downside at all to such exposure.

Students are not as easily confused as some folks claim they would be. I have found nothing but benefits to exposing them to different choices in dive equipment.

Oh ... and FWIW ... once I'm sidemount certified, I will probably expose them to that, too. I won't attempt to teach in it ... but I will make an effort to show them what it is, how it works, and under what circumstances someone might want to consider using it. I see no downside to doing so ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Do you teach a "normal" class? I am serious. The OW dive classes I see are so incredibly abbreviated that it is amazing that the students can master ANY gear.

I honestly think that trying to show a wide variety of gear types would be impractical and quickly reach diminishing marginal return, when applied in the current typical training setting. THAT is why I worry that presenting an overwhelming range of increasingly more complex gear configurations and options, might become noise.

All too many of OW students can barely work the BC, struggle with a mask clear and some can barely use fins in an efficient manner..

If you are running classes that far exceed the minimum requirements in time and you have the ability to do extensive "enrichment of the classes", then I think it is great..
 
Do you teach a "normal" class? I am serious. The OW dive classes I see are so incredibly abbreviated that it is amazing that the students can master ANY gear.

I honestly think that trying to show a wide variety of gear types would be impractical and quickly reach diminishing marginal return, when applied in the current typical training setting. THAT is why I worry that presenting an overwhelming range of increasingly more complex gear configurations and options, might become noise.

All too many of OW students can barely work the BC, struggle with a mask clear and some can barely use fins in an efficient manner..

If you are running classes that far exceed the minimum requirements in time and you have the ability to do extensive "enrichment of the classes", then I think it is great..

I train students in standard equipment ... and for practical purposes, I wear what they are training in. I allow my assistants to wear whatever they normally use ... and in that way, demonstrate and explain to the students the differences.

I've yet to have a student "struggle" with this approach. I really don't buy into the notion that looking at alternative ways of doing something is overly burdensome ... it's something we all get exposed to in many different ways pretty much our entire lives.

It really isn't all that difficult ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Bob,

First, thanks for the "as usual" statement. The aspersions always helps a conversation.

The problem is not with the gear. Obviously, I dive sidemount and use two long hoses when I do. Would I allow a DMC to help with a class in that gear? Probably not. Especially so if they are wanting to help demonstrate skills. Finding your regs with a long hose and bungee is distinctly different than with the traditional hose set up. Now, mind you, I have contemplated teaching the long hose right from the get go and then this would make sense and having a DMC in the traditional configuration would not be appropriate.

The Shenanigans is about your assertion that the instructor is incompetent because he doesn't want to do this.

No aspersion intended Pete ... merely an observation that you have a tendency to take what someone is trying to say well beyond what was intended ... as you just, again, demonstrated.

And I didn't say the instructor is incompetent because he doesn't want to do this ... I said I'd question the qualifications of any instructor who was unable to do this ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
And I didn't say the instructor is incompetent because he doesn't want to do this ... I said I'd question the qualifications of any instructor who was unable to do this ...
Word quibbles... If you "question his qualifications" then you are implying that he is incompetent.

The point I was making is that just because he has never dove a long hose, there is no reason to question his qualifications to teach an OW class. If you have never dove a long hose then you are probably ignorant of how it differs from using a traditional hose.

FWIW, you have continued the aspersions about what is "usual". That's OK, we've grown to expect that of you! :rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:
 
Word quibbles... If you "question his qualifications" then you are implying that he is incompetent.

The point I was making is that just because he has never dove a long hose, there is no reason to question his qualifications to teach an OW class. If you have never dove a long hose then you are probably ignorant of how it differs from using a traditional hose.

FWIW, you have continued the aspersions about what is "usual". That's OK, we've grown to expect that of you! :rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:

... as I have you, Pete ... shall we continue this tit for tat? Or perhaps we should attempt to behave like the professionals we're supposed to be in this forum?

You see no difference between someone "wanting" to do something vs being "unable" to do something?

If I can explain a long hose to a completely green OW student in 10 minutes, how much effort do you suppose it would take for a dive instructor to understand it?

In this case, the instructor had a perfect opportunity to learn ... he has a DMC wearing one who is perfectly capable of explaining it. Instead, the instructor refused to ask, listen or learn ... choosing instead to "prohibiit".

So is it a case of "unable" or "unwilling"?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Wart,

Did you notice I said, "after he had performed in his rig a few times", HELLO !

I dive many times in a full face mask but don't teach it in my OW classes....

Gezzzzz, some of you guys just get way too carried away with your own self importance....

Again amazing how some instructors take students directly to BP&W and never even let students try other equipment and then BARK about it when it happens the other way around.....
 
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