OK, I've taken some time to read the thread and point out some issues:
You've kind of missed the point. The purpose of the watermanship tests isn't anything to do with "the real world", it's about seeing whether candidates are comfortable in water, under a variety of conditions and provide some measure of fitness evaluation across multiple dimensions - speed, power, stamina etc.
Pointless. You can tell with in 5 minutes whether someone can float/tread water - in reality, beyond that 5 minutes there is no point continuing the appraisal.
All your doing is changing the emphasis onto one aspect of the fitness evaluation, stamina.
So PADI should make the test that you found OK harder, and the test you failed to do should be gotten rid of? I don't see how the 400m swim involves a combination of skills - it's swimming.
If you couldn't swim 50m, you should have just been thrown out of the class. A PADI OW diver has to do 200m, so you've just said that you couldn't do a quarter of that......
Again, it's not about real world. It's about evaluating comfort and fitness along multiple dimensions.
The test is essentially a power test, as reflected in the times and the activity. If you make it longer, you are turning it into a stamina test. Given that you are wanting to change the snorkel test more towards stamina as well, you will only be evaluating a single fitness dimension.
Stamina is important, but it's not the only dimension of fitness. And it may not be the most important one.
What fitness dimension are you measuring, and what standard do you deem to be acceptable?
I agree, Jim - but you have to define "strong". For example, I am a very capable swimmer, regularly swim multiple km in the pool and during summer am out ocean swimming. But my "strength" is in stamina, I am not a fast swimmer (hence, I have no power).
Good. The 400m swim is integral to the watermanship evaluation. The combination of time and distance gives you an opportunity to evaluate power. But I don't think that 400m is enough to evaluate stamina. The snorkel swim attempts to do that, but it's aided. My thought would be to add an untimed 2km swim to evaluate stamina, then get rid of the "any time scores a 1" for the 400m swim and require faster times for each score 1-5.
Personally, I quite like the PADI points approach - it accommodates variation in individual ability and enables you to counsel DMTs on what they need to improve and how, without being punitive about it. I would like to see the current tests have a minimum time to pass rather than any time, as well as a higher pass mark overall.
You and me both.
Again, I will say that the purpose of the evaluation has nothing to do with real life. It is up to the instructor to evaluate candidates on their fitness dimensions and counsel them after thinking about their shortcoming are.
Don't know who told you that. PADI standards allow people to wear exposure compensation, but they then must be weighted for neutral buoyancy. Maybe it's a facility rule to intimidate you, but it's definitely not a PADI standard.
NULL argument based on inaccurate information.
400 meter Swim:
Change: Eliminate it.
Reasons: <snip> On to DM: The chances a DM would ever have to swim at all without fins (let alone 400m) is negligible. <snip>
You've kind of missed the point. The purpose of the watermanship tests isn't anything to do with "the real world", it's about seeing whether candidates are comfortable in water, under a variety of conditions and provide some measure of fitness evaluation across multiple dimensions - speed, power, stamina etc.
15 minute Float:
Changes: 1. Make it an hour in the deep end without drowning (another poster's suggestion).
Pointless. You can tell with in 5 minutes whether someone can float/tread water - in reality, beyond that 5 minutes there is no point continuing the appraisal.
800 meter Mask, Fins and Snorkel Swim:
Changes: 1. Make it longer, maybe twice as long and adjust the times accordingly, as doing 1600 meters means you'd probably slow a lot more toward the end.
All your doing is changing the emphasis onto one aspect of the fitness evaluation, stamina.
I got a 3 yesterday and a 2 originally with no training at all. Maybe because my legs were in decent shape because I dive a lot. Whereas with the 400, which involves a combination of skills I could barely do 50 meters and conked out the first try.
So PADI should make the test that you found OK harder, and the test you failed to do should be gotten rid of? I don't see how the 400m swim involves a combination of skills - it's swimming.
If you couldn't swim 50m, you should have just been thrown out of the class. A PADI OW diver has to do 200m, so you've just said that you couldn't do a quarter of that......
2. Allow the use of arms. Not to make it easier, but because this is what you'd do to go out and rescue someone.
Again, it's not about real world. It's about evaluating comfort and fitness along multiple dimensions.
100 meter Tired Diver Tow:
Change: Make it longer, maybe twice as long, and adjust times accordingly, as you'd slow down toward the end. This test is very practical. It's a rescue technique. Distance in this test is more important than time, because it is a "tired diver tow", not a "diver in cardiac arrest tow".
The test is essentially a power test, as reflected in the times and the activity. If you make it longer, you are turning it into a stamina test. Given that you are wanting to change the snorkel test more towards stamina as well, you will only be evaluating a single fitness dimension.
Stamina is important, but it's not the only dimension of fitness. And it may not be the most important one.
This all makes sense to me. Some good input from all-keep 'em coming. Anyone have views on how I would change the 800, 100 and float?
What fitness dimension are you measuring, and what standard do you deem to be acceptable?
I'm of the opinion that dive professionals should be strong swimmers.
I agree, Jim - but you have to define "strong". For example, I am a very capable swimmer, regularly swim multiple km in the pool and during summer am out ocean swimming. But my "strength" is in stamina, I am not a fast swimmer (hence, I have no power).
Back to your original post. I would be very disappointed if PADI dropped the 400 yard swim requirement. I feel strongly that dive professionals should, as a prerequisite, be reasonably strong swimmers and possess above average stamina and fitness. How best to test those than to require a timed swim of moderate length?
Good. The 400m swim is integral to the watermanship evaluation. The combination of time and distance gives you an opportunity to evaluate power. But I don't think that 400m is enough to evaluate stamina. The snorkel swim attempts to do that, but it's aided. My thought would be to add an untimed 2km swim to evaluate stamina, then get rid of the "any time scores a 1" for the 400m swim and require faster times for each score 1-5.
The explanation I was given by my agency where we have to swim 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, it's pass/fail there's no point system grading.
Personally, I quite like the PADI points approach - it accommodates variation in individual ability and enables you to counsel DMTs on what they need to improve and how, without being punitive about it. I would like to see the current tests have a minimum time to pass rather than any time, as well as a higher pass mark overall.
While I don't think you should be required to score a 5 on the tests, I'm not a big fan of the fact that you can score a 1 on some of them and still pass.
You and me both.
The tests as given demonstrate nothing of value precisely because they are happening in a pool - which is effectively ideal conditions.
Put the swims in OW, with moderate chop and some current. Then at least they're related to what a DM would be doing when such swims become necessary
Again, I will say that the purpose of the evaluation has nothing to do with real life. It is up to the instructor to evaluate candidates on their fitness dimensions and counsel them after thinking about their shortcoming are.
Agree completely. Unfortunately without a 7 mil wetsuit that limits classes to 1 or 2 months a year here, and aside from the Tow, no wetsuits allowed.
Don't know who told you that. PADI standards allow people to wear exposure compensation, but they then must be weighted for neutral buoyancy. Maybe it's a facility rule to intimidate you, but it's definitely not a PADI standard.
And considering that divers wear wet suits in even the most agreeable of locations (with a few rare examples of individuals choosing against the norm) that is yet another point against the utility of the tests.
NULL argument based on inaccurate information.