Change the Stamina Tests

[Divin'Papaw]

Another question is if dive pros are required to do a lifesaving course should lifeguards be required to take a rescue diver course? I know that's impractical as they would first need an OW course and equipment. But still, it can be a matter of money vs. the chances of a diver actually needing lifeguard skills for the one in a million chance he might have to rescue someone in a non-dive situation with no lifeguards around.

Huh? Rarely are lifeguards around divers nor are most lifeguards certified divers themselves, so I would say no. The exception would be ocean lifeguards along the coasts where alot of shore diving occurs. I do believe that lifeguards, especially professional lifeguards, in these situations are trained to rescue a diver once they are on the surface. That is not the same thing as taking a rescue diver course.

Who said anything about rescuing someone in a non-dive situation when a lifeguard is not around? My argument is that lifesaving skills are very, very helpful to allow you, as a dive professional, to perform a rescue in just about all diving situations.

The argument I am trying to make is that becoming a dive professional means you are now working in a professional capacity that involves taking students in and around water. It is hard to anticipate exactly what type of assistance may be required in an emergency. To best prepare, dive professionals must possess exceptional diver rescue skills. They must also be current in CPR and First Aid. Those are all great. However, there are elements that seem to be missing. Why not require dive professionals to be trained in lifeguard skills? Why not require dive professionals to be trained in oxygen first aid? Those seem to be very useful skills, almost essential skills, to have available to you. However, the agency I'm certified through does not require them. I'm not sure that's a good idea.

Back to your original post. I would be very disappointed if PADI dropped the 400 yard swim requirement. I feel strongly that dive professionals should, as a prerequisite, be reasonably strong swimmers and possess above average stamina and fitness. How best to test those than to require a timed swim of moderate length?

 

[TMHeimer]

Not sure I understand your EFR story. AFAIK, here and in the rest of the USA, the only renewal costs to continuing as a PADI Teaching Status OWSI are membership and insurance. If you are covered on a shop insurance policy then membership is all that's required. Is a DM in Canada required to renew EFR to maintain Active DM status? Not saying renewed EFR for Instructors and DM's isn't a good idea, just wondering who it's required for.

If someone with an EFR Instructor rating never even helps teach an EFR class, how long do they stay a certified EFR Instructor? If an EFR Instructor rating can expire due to lack of use, would an MSDT rating expire due to an EFR Instructor rating expiring?

You're absolutely right. I called PADI and they said it must be a LDS rule. I was SURE it was a PADI rule. Thanks-you learn something every day.

 

[TMHeimer]

Huh? Rarely are lifeguards around divers nor are most lifeguards certified divers themselves, so I would say no. The exception would be ocean lifeguards along the coasts where alot of shore diving occurs. I do believe that lifeguards, especially professional lifeguards, in these situations are trained to rescue a diver once they are on the surface. That is not the same thing as taking a rescue diver course.

Who said anything about rescuing someone in a non-dive situation when a lifeguard is not around? My argument is that lifesaving skills are very, very helpful to allow you, as a dive professional, to perform a rescue in just about all diving situations.

The argument I am trying to make is that becoming a dive professional means you are now working in a professional capacity that involves taking students in and around water. It is hard to anticipate exactly what type of assistance may be required in an emergency. To best prepare, dive professionals must possess exceptional diver rescue skills. They must also be current in CPR and First Aid. Those are all great. However, there are elements that seem to be missing. Why not require dive professionals to be trained in lifeguard skills? Why not require dive professionals to be trained in oxygen first aid? Those seem to be very useful skills, almost essential skills, to have available to you. However, the agency I'm certified through does not require them. I'm not sure that's a good idea.

Back to your original post. I would be very disappointed if PADI dropped the 400 yard swim requirement. I feel strongly that dive professionals should, as a prerequisite, be reasonably strong swimmers and possess above average stamina and fitness. How best to test those than to require a timed swim of moderate length?

I didn't know lifeguards were trained to rescue divers on the surface-thanks.
As I mentioned to Halemano, I found that PADI doesn't required keeping EFR refreshed, but I guess LDSs can. This was news to me. Agree completely about the O2 training, I guess beyond what you get in Rescue.
Re the 400: I guess that's just a topic that could and has been debated a lot. It certainly can't hurt to be a fine swimmer, I guess I'm always just stuck up on the possibility of a scenario where a DM would actually be swimming 200, 400 meters to do a rescue. I'd still like for anyone to give me a specific scenario for that, but that's just me beating a dead horse.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Re the 400: I guess that's just a topic that could and has been debated a lot. It certainly can't hurt to be a fine swimmer, I guess I'm always just stuck up on the possibility of a scenario where a DM would actually be swimming 200, 400 meters to do a rescue. I'd still like for anyone to give me a specific scenario for that, but that's just me beating a dead horse.

The only people who are debating this from the side you are debating it are weak in the water and probably not worthy DM candidates (or graduates).

The PADI DM Stamina Skill's are a total score for all 4 skills; you could still pass even if it took 2 hours to complete the 400 (1 pt? - well insulated person floating on their back with continuous progress and no hanging on the walls?). As with every other certification level in the PADI world, the requirements to pass PADI DM are among the easiest DM requirements in the dive world.

Continuing to whine on the internet about the 400 is pretty pathetic.

 

[TMHeimer]

The only people who are debating this from the side you are debating it are weak in the water and probably not worthy DM candidates (or graduates).

The PADI DM Stamina Skill's are a total score for all 4 skills; you could still pass even if it took 2 hours to complete the 400 (1 pt? - well insulated person floating on their back with continuous progress and no hanging on the walls?). As with every other certification level in the PADI world, the requirements to pass PADI DM are among the easiest DM requirements in the dive world.

Continuing to whine on the internet about the 400 is pretty pathetic.

Well, I don't know. I did what I had to do get a 3 in the end, which I don't consider too bad at age 56. I'm sure you'll disagree. I'm just questioning it's practicality. We'll just have to agree to disagree. No need for name calling, it's just a discussion.

 

[Ber Rabbit]

The explanation I was given by my agency where we have to swim 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, it's pass/fail there's no point system grading. I was told the bar has to be set somewhere. I've seen a post on here or an article (I don't remember which) that described the history of the distance for the swim. I believe it had to do with swimming around the end of a pier and back again or something, don't quote me. I asked if we could count it a pass if the individual was within a few seconds of the 10 minutes and was told no. If we start fudging it a few seconds then the next guy fudges it a few more and so on. The standard is 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, period. You don't make it, you go back to training until you can. It's part of the definition of being an instructor with my agency.

I have to work hard to get that distance in that time, I can do it in 11 minutes most days but that's not good enough. I have seen people with an efficient stroke do it in just over 4 minutes. That tells me the 10 minutes isn't unreasonable I just have to work for it.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[TMHeimer]

The explanation I was given by my agency where we have to swim 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, it's pass/fail there's no point system grading. I was told the bar has to be set somewhere. I've seen a post on here or an article (I don't remember which) that described the history of the distance for the swim. I believe it had to do with swimming around the end of a pier and back again or something, don't quote me. I asked if we could count it a pass if the individual was within a few seconds of the 10 minutes and was told no. If we start fudging it a few seconds then the next guy fudges it a few more and so on. The standard is 450 yards in 10 minutes or less, period. You don't make it, you go back to training until you can. It's part of the definition of being an instructor with my agency.

I have to work hard to get that distance in that time, I can do it in 11 minutes most days but that's not good enough. I have seen people with an efficient stroke do it in just over 4 minutes. That tells me the 10 minutes isn't unreasonable I just have to work for it.
Ber :lilbunny:

With PADI you score a "3" out of 5 for doing 400 yards in 8-10 minutes, so it's a little slacker, but similar. Of course, if you score enough points on the other 3 things all you have to do is finish the 400 with PADI-that's the big difference. We had one guy who did it in about 5 minutes, getting a "5", but he was a competitive swimmer.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

With PADI you score a "3" out of 5 for doing 400 yards in 8-10 minutes, so it's a little slacker, but similar. Of course, if you score enough points on the other 3 things all you have to do is finish the 400 with PADI-that's the big difference. We had one guy who did it in about 5 minutes, getting a "5", but he was a competitive swimmer.

Disclaimer ... I scored a 5 on the 400 yd swim

While I don't think you should be required to score a 5 on the tests, I'm not a big fan of the fact that you can score a 1 on some of them and still pass. IMO it would better serve our future students if a 3 was the minimum passing score for any individual test. I believe that's consistent with 12 being a passing total score. There are 4 tests, with a total score of 12 being required to pass. Last time I checked, 12/4 was 3. I see no reason to not require at least a 3 on each test.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I have seen people with an efficient stroke do it in just over 4 minutes.

I have rarely run into anybody that swims 450 yards in just over 4 minutes, including college swim team members. IMHO, only the best college/Olympic 400 freestyle swimmers could swim 450 yards in 4:01-4:14, which is what I consider just over 4 minutes.

I was too slow to get a college scholarship in swimming. My best competitive stroke was breaststroke; I placed 9th or 10th in the 100 meter Breast at the Colorado State AAU Championships shortly after my 17th b-day (perhaps if I had done more than 2.5 months training per year). Shortly before my 18th b-day I "trained" a couple weeks and won the 50, 100 and 200 yard Free's in South Eastern Colorado's AAU Valley Championships; all of them qualify as flukes.

In the 100, I had a perfect start (read false start), three perfect flip turns (old school pike!) and won by two body lengths (probably 'cause the others all knew I false started and hesitated on the blocks). My time was ~1:00. My 200 time was probably around 2:15 (the favorite with 8 second better time in prelims broke his foot on a flip turn - finished second, but got a scholarship). A 400 yard free in under 4 minutes as a serious training 17 year old will result in a college scholarship. 450 yards in just over 4 minutes is in the realm of the Olympic Finals 400 swimmers.

In yards, the PADI requirement for 5 points is "less than 6 minutes." That is averaging just under 1:30 per 100 yards. This winter I "trained" for less than 10 days and managed ~5:55. That was my first swim training since that 2 week "wind sprint" training over 32 years ago. I am not trying to toot my own horn; I am trying to show how easy PADI is on DM's. I was not a good enough swimmer to get a college scholarship, have done no swim training for over 30 years and even on vacation at 7,200 feet above my residential elevation for the past 20 years (sea level - Los Alamos, NM) a 5 on the 400 only took 2 weeks of training.

450 yards in under 10 minutes sounds like a "reasonable bar" to me! Wish PADI would require similar, but that would seriously impact corporate and dive shop bottom lines.

 

[TMHeimer]

Disclaimer ... I scored a 5 on the 400 yd swim

While I don't think you should be required to score a 5 on the tests, I'm not a big fan of the fact that you can score a 1 on some of them and still pass. IMO it would better serve our future students if a 3 was the minimum passing score for any individual test. I believe that's consistent with 12 being a passing total score. There are 4 tests, with a total score of 12 being required to pass. Last time I checked, 12/4 was 3. I see no reason to not require at least a 3 on each test.

Sounds reasonable. If your swimming fundamentals are good enough to get a 2, with some work anyone should be able to get a 3. I would think that better than that is getting somewhat into the "competitive" swimmer range, but I'm no expert.