What if...? Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives

[Jax]

I did a trip to Mexico many years back. There were three older ladies on the trip who hadn't been diving for a long time. Their buoyancy, to put if frankly, sucked. One in particular. She was constantly drifting up or hitting the bottom, kicking stuff and once even got a really nasty cut on her knee where she hit part of the reef.

On about day 3 of the trip, we went through a swim through. I can't recall the site, but it was fairly deep and a fairly long swim through and there was only enough room for single file diving. I ended up behind that lady and she was constantly kicking up sand. It wasn't a complete siltout, but it definitely obscured my vision.

About half way through, she panicked. All of a sudden she was kicking and twisting and she wanted out of there RIGHT NOW! She knocked my mask loose, almost knocked my reg out and somehow managed to turn herself around to face me, determined to go back out the way she came.

By this time a couple of other divers were behind me and we were bottlenecked and the only way out was forward. I managed to grab a hold of her tank valve and get her pointed back out. I held onto it the rest of the way, getting kicked in the ribs and stomach several times for my effort.

Once we cleared the swim through, she shot for the surface with a DM following. Back on the boat, I found out her mask started flooding and she was having problems clearing it. She started feeling claustrophobic and panicked. That was her last dive of the trip much to the relief of several of the rest of us.

:shocked2: Damn good thing you were behind her! She'd have panicked another diver!

 

[Cave Diver]

The fact that you even "kinda" took what I wrote seriously scares me.

"I'll socialize and joke on my down time." You're online in a SCUBA forum...this is your down-time!

I'll agree that your responses seemed pretty obviously to be tongue in cheek rather than a serious attempt to answer and that this is "down time" for many of us.

But please keep in mind this is in the New Divers forum. The point of this forum is serve as a learning zone and as such it has special rules. Many people have found this discussion to helpful and I'd appreciate if you take those members into consideration when posting.

 

[Cave Diver]

:shocked2: Damn good thing you were behind her! She'd have panicked another diver!

She damn near panicked me. I was still fresh out of AOW and all my diving up to that point had been pretty benign. All I knew was that I couldn't go back, so we needed to go forward and we were gonna do it whether she liked it or not.

 

[Cave Diver]

What if the plan has no turn pressure?

It doesnt matter. There should be a discussion regarding some sort of turn point in your dive, whether it be a set time, pressure, or reaching a certain point in the dive. I tend to avoid dives with no plan for turning the dive. Otherwise, we'd end up a mile and a half down the reef and surfacing because we ran out of gas and having to do a surface swim or walk of shame back to our entry point.

What if the plan is to go into an overhead environment?

Then that's not really applicable to this discussion is it? This discussion revolves around deviations from the plan or pushing people past their comfort levels.

If you make a plan to go into an overhead, then I would hope that there is some discussion and understanding of it, and appropriate precautions are taken. If the divers are ok with the plan, then that's the plan (we'll save the appropriateness of that for another discussion). If they're not ok with that and the DM does it anyway, then there's a problem.

I have guided at dozens of dive sites and very few are "out and back" dives. Most guided dives I know of start out intending to circle an area of interest, visiting known highlights. In the briefing I inform the guests that I will ask what their tank pressure is when I am at ~2/3 tank and in the briefing the guests are instructed to tell me when they reach 1/2 tank and when they reach 1/3 tank. Depending on the various x-factors of up to 6 unknown divers "following" me, I vary the length of the circle, pace and/or depth in order to get the heaviest breathers back to the ascent point with enough air for a proper ascent. If there is still time left on the planned dive, "figure eights" kind of describes the ensuing micro tours away and back to the ascent point as needed. If none of the divers is limited by air pressure, NDL's and/or planned dive time bring us all back to the ascent point for a proper ascent. In the last case the "circle" may be larger and the pace may be slower. Even on sites I have guided hundreds of times, the current or surge at depth is not "exactly" predictable from surface observation, so the "tentative plan" may evolve underwater. Marine life also sometimes causes a plan hijack; school of barracuda, pod of dolphin, hunting or feeding rays, just to name a few.

That sounds to me like a "plan." It may be a loose plan, but a plan nonetheless, because you monitor air pressure and you tailor the dive based on their responses. I would still hope that the individual divers take responsibility for their own gas management and that they indicate when it's time to ascend if they hit their comfort level. Just because they follow you doesn't mean they're ok with. It could mean they're just to timid to speak up against an "authority figure."

Why are you using the term "cave" in a question regarding a boat dive?

Why not? There is such a thing as sea caves, and it is possible to find encounter them diving from a boat or even the shore. In Grand Cayman there is Eden Rock and I've done several dives there that could be considered caves. There is also some off of East End that is only accessible by boat. Mexico, the Bahamas and the Gulf of Mexico are other places that come immediately to mind where they may be encountered.

Even if the newer divers following the guide understand the definitions of a cave, unless there is a restriction within sight from the entrance, one would usually have to be significantly inside the overhead to get to the point where they would have to decide if they would follow the guide into a cave.

I've been inside a cave in Mexico that was significantly less distance than some swim coral swim throughs I've done. Probably less than 100' in and you're completely out of sight of the entrance without having to go through any restrictions.

Most briefings I have heard or given for boat dives where there is the possibility of overhead environments, the overhead is mentioned in the briefing, as well as the concept that following through the overhead is not mandatory; and I have never heard of boat guides guiding beginners into caves.

Then I guess that makes your previous comment about "what if the plan is to enter an overhead" irrelevant?

 

[LoonDiver]

Okay, I'll give it a go...I've read some, but not all of the prior responses.

What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?

This happened to me on my 6th open water dive ever and my 1st ocean dive -- a drift dive in Cozumel. The DM/instructor my buddy/husband and I had hired privately to guide us ignored my signal that I had reached the agreed air pressure to start up. Apparently he didn't want to end the dive yet...I am sorry to report I just went with it and trusted he knew what he was doing. I felt more secure staying with him than ascending on my own with no idea where the boat was or how to signal it. We were diving beyond our experience level on this one, which is why we hired him in the first place! Now I know better and my buddy and I would ascend when we reached the agreed air pressure and hang out at the surface with our safety sausage(s).

What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

They did this too in Cozumel...through a Reef tunnel. I refused to go into one I couldn't see the end of, but did go through one that was no more than twice my body length. I wish now I hadn't, because my tank hit the top...another lesson learned.

What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

Like an earlier poster said: Freak Out! My buddy is my husband and I would be terrified that he wasn't okay. I would hope he wouldn't get that far away from me without my knowing -- we try to stay close, but if he did, I would signal him to ascend. If he didn't see my signal, I would try to get to him to get in his face about it and if necessary would drag him up by inflating my BCD -- probably not the right answer, but we haven't had a rescue class yet. I'd be afraid to drop weights to get him up, because of fear of a runaway ascent.

I really want to hear experienced diver answers to this one. My buddy and I have been discussing it for awhile now and can't agree on a response.

What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?

I would say NO in no uncertain terms. I'm very cautious and you won't get me in there if I'm not comfortable. WHICH IS WHY WE HIRED A PRIVATE DM/INSTRUCTOR ON OUR FIRST OCEAN DIVE. (This is a reference to scenario (a) -- my buddy and I now refer to that DM as F***er.

What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

Repeat the thumb up along with a questioning shrug to make sure that's what he meant. Then go if he repeated his thumb.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I did a trip to Mexico many years back. There were three older ladies on the trip who hadn't been diving for a long time. Their buoyancy, to put if frankly, sucked. One in particular. She was constantly drifting up or hitting the bottom, kicking stuff and once even got a really nasty cut on her knee where she hit part of the reef.

On about day 3 of the trip, we went through a swim through. I can't recall the site, but it was fairly deep and a fairly long swim through and there was only enough room for single file diving. I ended up behind that lady and she was constantly kicking up sand. It wasn't a complete siltout, but it definitely obscured my vision.

About half way through, she panicked. All of a sudden she was kicking and twisting and she wanted out of there RIGHT NOW! She knocked my mask loose, almost knocked my reg out and somehow managed to turn herself around to face me, determined to go back out the way she came.

By this time a couple of other divers were behind me and we were bottlenecked and the only way out was forward. I managed to grab a hold of her tank valve and get her pointed back out. I held onto it the rest of the way, getting kicked in the ribs and stomach several times for my effort.

Once we cleared the swim through, she shot for the surface with a DM following. Back on the boat, I found out her mask started flooding and she was having problems clearing it. She started feeling claustrophobic and panicked. That was her last dive of the trip much to the relief of several of the rest of us.

It could quite possibly have been the last dive of her lifetime ... I've known people who gave up diving completely after scaring the crap out of themselves in a situation that caused them to panic underwater.

But because nobody got injured or killed, the dive guide probably considered it a successful dive.

The takeaway for the new diver is that the dive guide doesn't determine your comfort zone ... you do. Because if something happens that causes your "fight or flight" instinct to kick in, the dive guide may or may not be able to get to you in time to prevent the onset of panic.

Never be afraid to say "I think I'll sit this one out" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

On a related note ... there are three hand signals in scuba diving that are known as "command signals".

- do you know what they are?
- do you know why they are called "command signals"?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[k ellis]

* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?

Well it would depend on the pressure at the turn around. Did you agree to stop at 2000 pounds or 500? If it were at a point deemed critical I would have to abort the dive in order to assure self preservation. Key factor on all these questions is if you yourself become injured or die as a result you have done neither one of you any good

* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

I have followed into Caverns before but I refuse to go into caves for any reason. If they want to go in and are not wise enough to carry the proper gear then there is nothing I can do. Ill attempt to get their attention and let them know but I cant stop an adult from making a dumb decision.

* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

Go to the deepest point I felt safe at air permitting and attempt to retrieve the diver. Remember though if you put yourself in jeopardy who will save both of you? It may be hours or more before any one even notices neither of you have come back

* What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?

Tell them I was not comfortable with the dive. If they persisted I would not encourage them to dive just reaffirm that I was not comfortable with the dive.

* What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

I would not take any chances If he said he needed to go up for some reason I would immediately go with him. better to aborth the dive and clobber them for making miss a good dive then to chance it and miss a good friend.

 

[Cave Diver]

What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

On a related note ... there are three hand signals in scuba diving that are known as "command signals".

- do you know what they are?
- do you know why they are called "command signals"?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Great question Bob!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives
* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?

Signal that turn pressure has been reached and to begin the ascent or turn the dive and begin the swim back to the exit/entry. If they ignore the signal, wave bye bye and go back. This is why on every dive especially when following a guide I always know the direction we are going and how to get back to the boat or shore. Also always have my own plan that I will follow or fall back on anytime someone does something I am not comfortable with.

* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

Try to signal him and any other divers that were not overhead trained to stay out. I would wait by the entry until MY turn pressure was reached and then ascend to the boat and make it known very strongly that the DM was IMO putting people in danger to the crew on the boat, the staff at the shop, and on here as well. As an instructor who has some overhead training and experience (wrecks and ice) I would feel qualified to assess the situation and make that call. I'd also immediately follow up with a quality complaint to the agency that the DM is certed through and post that complaint publicly and the agency's response to it and let them know I was doing it.


* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

Try to stop him or her by whatever means I needed to within my training and experience and if I felt my safety was being jeopardized by going too deep, take note of the location for the recovery team. I would also not dive with them again if they did make it back to the surface.


* What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?

I would not go and try to discourage them from going as well. But as a certified diver they are responsible for themselves and if they chose to endanger themselves it would be their decision to do so. I am not the scuba police.


* What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

Doesn't matter. Any diver can end a dive at any time and no reason need not be given. If they end the dive and I am their buddy the dive is over. Period end of discussion. I may go back in the water AFTER I have seen them SAFELY on the boat or shore and in no danger. But I would not let them go to the surface alone. I admit I have done that but after the research I've done and the people that have died alone on the surface with their buddy no where around I have chosen to not do that any more.

Trust me dives have killed divers. To do them is reckless and irresponsible and to encourage or lead divers on them is to me disgusting. A good instructor, DM, or guide will require every diver they lead to have their own plan for that buddy team. They will make it clear that each diver is responsible for their own safety. IF they don't they are not a good person to follow or trust as I see it.