do you ever notice negativity between dive shops?

[Quero]

Things that can not find a nitch where they can survive will become the victim of natural selection when their protective fence fails. Local dive shop can survive but not until they change their business model. Gear needs to become a tertiary source of profit while training, service, and gas (things where the internet offers less or little competition) need to become the profit makers.

An alternative is clubs replacing local dive shops and the internet being the primary source of gear.

Very close to right. The business model has to fit the demands of the local market.

I don't stock gear at all. Most of my customers either bring their own gear or use rentals. For the others, I'm fortunate that my business is located at a place where there are three major wholesalers, so when my customers need gear, I take them shopping. The wholesalers give me a trade price (marked up from their own cost) and I can resell at a small markup as well to cover my time and costs. But I realize that in my case, location is everything. I wouldn't be able to do this at a place like Belize.

Training is not a money maker. Unless the industry reassesses the value of training, charging the actual cost of the training + a margin for profit rather than using it as a loss leader to get divers into the store in hopes of selling them gear, it never will be a money maker. And the divers are buying gear elsewhere anyway, so the whole loss-leader approach backfires.

In terms of other product, most shops do sell trips, but usually just a few a year. My primary source of income is in dive travel; when customers book trips, I can then try to sell training as an add-on. Gear sales comes in at a distant third. Of course taking people diving and teaching diving is what I enjoy, but the necessities of the bottom line mean that I spend at least as much time answering emails about dive travel as I spend in training divers.

Clubs may work in areas which are not dive destinations, but there's no way a club system will work on my island.

 

[keyshunter]

Examples of this I have encountered:


An LDS refusing to service (or charging a higher rate to service) gear not purchased at that shop.

QUOTE]

Many years ago, when I was living in Key West, I bought a used SP MK 2 from an individual. After several hundred dives it developed a slight freeflow and I took it to the local SP dealer to have it serviced. The first question he asked was "Did you buy it here?" When I said that I had bought it used, he threw me a price of $100, which was considerably more than I had paid for the reg. This was to service a first and second stage--no octo. I said no thanks, and left. A friend, who, at the time, knew much more about regs than I, offered me what I had paid. I sold him the reg, he flipped the seat, and went on to do at least several hundred more dives.

The same dealer also sold Beuchat. I went to him to change a battery on my old Aladin Pro. He again asked "did you buy it here?" When I said no, he said $75. I declined, and later bought a battery kit on the mainland. The full retail cost was $30 and I changed it myself in about 5 minutes.

The upside for me was that I soon learned to service my own equipment.

The downside for the dealer was that I sent dozens of people to other shops for equipment and service.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Training is not a money maker. Unless the industry reassesses the value of training, charging the actual cost of the training + a margin for profit rather than using it as a loss leader to get divers into the store in hopes of selling them gear, it never will be a money maker. And the divers are buying gear elsewhere anyway, so the whole loss-leader approach backfires.

This past year I joined a new business venture ... the brainchild of the person I took most of my tech instruction from. It is a coalition of five independent instructors ... representing NAUI, PADI, and SDI/TDI. The focus is on training ... we charge premium prices for our classes, and offer far more than the agencies we represent require. The owner of this business does sell equipment, and carries a moderate inventory of gear for use with classes, and to sell to students and others who wish to purchase it. But the focus of the business is to provide premium training, and charge accordingly.

When we run the numbers for students, they are often surprised to learn that while they are paying sometimes twice as much or more for training as they would at their local shop, they make up the difference in terms of what it costs them to outfit themselves with dive gear. The owner only does business with equipment manufacturers who do not specify MAP pricing, and who do not restrict internet sales or play double-standard games with volume retailers.

So far this business model appears to be working quite well ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[diver 85]

It's called competition-------------for the almighty george......

 

[captbillncostarica]

i remember down in Key Largo at Pennekamp Park when there were about 40 shops all within a few miles of each other doing business,,,so in those days it was a sort of do it GOOD or get out!
and no time to run your mouth as you were running your boats and staying busy,,

some shop owners did check each others parking lot out to see how many CARS were there and also said one C-Card was better along with certain dive gear,,

but it was FUN and very interesting to be in the DIVE business back in the 70's

but today it is still the same old thing!

Me, i am in it for the FUN of DIVING,,,

 

[Hoomi]

Recently in Tucson, one of our Dive Shops closed in their old location. At the time, we didn't know they had to move, and the owner of our other dive shop posted regrets that the shop was closing. He commented that the two shops had been serving Tucson's dive community well, and the other shop would be missed.

When he learned they would be reopening in a new location, he still wished them success, and did the same for the new shop that opened in the other shop's old location.

If there are animosities between the shops, the owners here in Tucson do a good job of keeping them out of the hearing of the customers. I think this is better for all concerned, because bad-mouthing the competition usually does as much to make you look bad as it does to make them look bad. I don't know how well Tucson will be able to support three shops, but I hope they all do fine.

 

[kaerius]

I've worked where the shops were amiable to eachother and would even send eachother excess business.

...and I've worked where (some) shops were openly hostile, to the point where they'd sabotage for eachother(ie: one shop would have a freelancer spy on the whiteboard of another shop, and then send a taxi to pick up the other shop's customers, the boats leaving from different harbors), as well as some that call immigration on the other shops(many do not go through the work permit process for their instructor, and the fines are huge).

Needless to say, I'm not going back to working in this second place next season.

 

[scubafanatic]

Examples of this I have encountered:


An LDS refusing to service (or charging a higher rate to service) gear not purchased at that shop.

QUOTE]

Many years ago, when I was living in Key West, I bought a used SP MK 2 from an individual. After several hundred dives it developed a slight freeflow and I took it to the local SP dealer to have it serviced. The first question he asked was "Did you buy it here?" When I said that I had bought it used, he threw me a price of $100, which was considerably more than I had paid for the reg. This was to service a first and second stage--no octo. I said no thanks, and left. A friend, who, at the time, knew much more about regs than I, offered me what I had paid. I sold him the reg, he flipped the seat, and went on to do at least several hundred more dives.

The same dealer also sold Beuchat. I went to him to change a battery on my old Aladin Pro. He again asked "did you buy it here?" When I said no, he said $75. I declined, and later bought a battery kit on the mainland. The full retail cost was $30 and I changed it myself in about 5 minutes.

The upside for me was that I soon learned to service my own equipment.

The downside for the dealer was that I sent dozens of people to other shops for equipment and service.

...what's bizarre about shops who won't service (or will service, but at a punishing/excessive price) gear not bought from their own stores is that the typical American moves to a new residence every few years, on average, hence it's inevitable that most people (divers) will soon move away from whatever LDS they do business with presently, so it's insane for someone to move to a new home/appartment and be penalized for not throwing away all their 'old' legacy gear and loading up on all new gear to satisfy their 'new' LDS!

Moreover, if enough dive shops have this policy, it will cause prices for used scuba gear to collapse, if the retail customer believes buying used gear gets them black listed for 'special treatment' (discrimination), divers won't buy used gear.....which will in turn drag down new scuba gear prices, as divers will be more reluctant to risk spending big $ on new gear that has little/no resale value if they need to liquidate/upgrade their gear due to financial hardship...career move-changes...or wanting to go the 'tech' route.

Also,, I've bought scuba gear from plenty of LDS who went out of business on me after many major gear purchases, so now that gear is all 'orphaned'....is it the customer's fault that their gear now needs to be serviced/repaired by a 'new' LDS...is it my fault I bought gear from LDSs that I failed to anticipate would go out of business months/years into the future ???

 

[mikemill]

Around me there are two LDS, one of which is big. The big one doesn't talk bad about anyone. I heard that when Sports Chalet reduced the number of stores doing scuba classes (and carrying gear) the owner said it would actually hurt their business. There is so much word of mouth going around that a lot of people end up there.

Now that same shop is very opinionated and IF YOU ASK they'll give you their opinion. You don't ask then they won't tell ya. The employees don't really care for DIR style of diving but I know plenty of DIR divers that go there without problems. They are more than happy to fill your tanks, service your gear, and provide you with other services regardless of where you got the gear, why style of diving you do, who you got trained by, etc. The shop sells DUI and I bought a Whites suit and have had no problems having a p-valve installed or a tear fixed.

The owner also runs the shop as a business with a big focus on customer service. If you are standing around looking at stuff you'll have an employee asking if you need help pretty quick. If you don't want help then they'll leave you alone until you do.

They also use their facilities for other uses. Their pool is used for swim training most of the day and is heated to make that comfortable. So they aren't having resources sitting around being wasted.

 

[Quero]

I agree with the general consensus that it's wrong to refuse to service gear that hasn't been bought at a particular LDS, but I don't really see any ethical problem with charging a higher price, within reason, for servicing gear that was bought elsewhere.

Let me explain with an analogy--every time I've gone back to the US to live for a few years, I've bought a new car. With each new car purchase I have received a coupon book good for discounts on regular maintenance. The coupons are good only at the dealership's repair shop and they are given only to customers who have purchased their vehicles at that dealership. If I decide, for example, that because I can get a better price on the car at the dealership in the town 100 miles away instead of at the one in my own town, I will buy my car in that farther away town and for the sake of convenience simply get my scheduled service performed at the store in my town. In this case, my coupons won't be any good and I'll be charged a premium price for the service by the dealership that didn't make the initial sale. Seems fair and logical to me to reward a customer who makes the initial big-ticket purchase with you.

So to apply this principle to maintenance of scuba gear, all a LDS would need to do is establish a price schedule for basic service and charge the same base price to everybody, but give discounts to those customers who actually purchased the gear at the shop. It's transparent, and instead of having some customers feeling p.o.'ed that the prices are raised for them, you have other customers feeling pleased that the prices have been discounted for them.