why hate safety devices?

[aquaregia]

I am sure that you can "manage" to get down to the bottom some how but it won't be easy or convenient .... Why spend your energy and your precious air kicking like mad to get the desired depth (if you stop kicking, you'd lose ground and float up to the surface)??

In the SCUBA classes I took, we had to be able to pike dive to the bottom of the pool to retrieve our weight belts after rescues. This was usually in full exposure gear. It took a total of zero fin kicks to make it to the bottom of a 14' pool. If you intend to be neutral at 15' at the end of the dive, you're going to be heavier by the weight of the gas you're going to use, and most definitely negative by 15'. Under these conditions, you will never need to kick down at all.

What about if you are involved in some sort of an U/W activity such as spearfishing, photography, U/W survey, etc.? How many tasks are you going to be able to handle? What about an instructor who is handling a class with students going up and down? The list goes on and on.

I think skipping the wing decreases task loading, not increases it. Most of the adjustment comes naturally and unconsciously. I would wear a wing if I was assisting with a class (even if not required by standards) in case I needed to establish extreme positive buoyancy without ditching weight.

If you are worried about losing a skill, so what? I am gaining another skill that makes it much more convenient, safer, more comfortable, more enjoyable while losing nothing.

I say this without intending to cause offense. In my personal experience, learning that I could dive without a wing has given me better understanding of diving and buoyancy control, and it has given me the opportunity to really be able to tune my weighting for a particular situation.

I believe that a method to establish positive buoyancy on the surface is essential, and that most people are reluctant to drop weights. For this reason, I believe that the BC is a helpful addition for most divers. When I dive without my wing, I wear my weights on the outside of my harness, wear a snorkel and carry a 40lb lift bag. For most of my diving, I use a wing.

 

[aquaregia]

I am only saying that using a BC is the most convenient, more enjoyable and safer way of diving for the greater majority of "recreational" divers. I am also saying that it is not a "cop out" to us the BC.

I don't disagree that using a BC is more convenient and safer for most divers (including myself), nor do I think using a BC is a cop out. But it is possible to maintain buoyancy in a fairly wide depth range and perform a safety stop even using a thick wetsuit without the aid of a BC.

 

[kanonfodr]

First, I was one of these folks that didn't use a BC for about 10 years. Did you ever consider that these folks who didn't use the BC way back then, didn't use it because there was no such thing as BC's and if there were, they would have used them?

Personally I would put it up to most folks want to spend money to be lazy with no regard to efficiency. The BC is a tool, if I don't need it I don't bring it along. But there are many situations where I wouldn't be caught dead without a wing, like diving heavy doubles, wreck/cave penetration, etc. But for a single tank reef dive with little/no surface swim? I'd love to ditch my wing.

BTW, I am not arguing against your right to not use a BC for whatever rationalization you have, I am only saying that using a BC is the most convenient, more enjoyable and safer way of diving for the greater majority of "recreational" divers. I am also saying that it is not a "cop out" to us the BC.

Most "recreational divers" are on the edge of control in the water anyways, IMO, so I wouldn't want them in there without a life jacket. But I do feel that everyone should take a stab at going without the BC, figure out what they are actually capable of, and learning from it. I'd also recommend learning about horizontal trim, neutral bouyancy, and proper propulsion/position control techniques but I tend to get blank stares when I ask most of the local dive instructors about those concepts so I have little faith in their students figuring it out without intervention by others from afar, via Scubaboard, Facebook, dive travel, etc etc etc.

Peace,
Greg

 

[Kern]

Just for future reference, if you want me to answer a question about something in the thread, put it in the thread, not a PM.

 

[peterbj7]

Micro-bubbles form post dive

I'm not going to assert that that's wrong, but I believe it is. Firstly I can't imagine any physiological reason to prevent (micro)bubbles forming during a dive, and secondly I know of people who have had helium hits under water. If bubbles can form, so can micro-bubbles.

 

[diver 85]

& I thought this was gunna be a 'quiet' nite----Who's selling the popcorn for the later rounds???---& any drinks to go along with it???.......................

 

[DaleC]

I don't believe you have 2500+ dives and still struggle with this stuff; you must be trolling.

• I manage to do it pretty well every week, year round lake and ocean
• I don't struggle
• it's easy and convenient
• either I waste my air swimming down or I waste it venting my BC and DS to decend only to put it back in to take the squeeze off and attain bouyancy (doh). Momentum and a few kicks take you down far enough to compress; it's not that hard
• I am almost always shooting video and carrying a stage. I also do fish research

I've explained how it's done. Dive that way or not, it doesn't matter to me but listening to you argue against it theoretically and concocting scenarios is a little funny (but mostly pathetic).

DaleC,

I am sure that you can "manage" to get down to the bottom some how but it won't be easy or convenient. I don't think that collecting rocks or anything else U/W is a way to spend your precious U/W time. Why spend your energy and your precious air kicking like mad to get the desired depth (if you stop kicking, you'd lose ground and float up to the surface)?? Are diving to enjoy the diving or to just score points??

What about if you are involved in some sort of an U/W activity such as spearfishing, photography, U/W survey, etc.? How many tasks are you going to be able to handle? What about an instructor who is handling a class with students going up and down? The list goes on and on.

If you are worried about losing a skill, so what? I am gaining another skill that makes it much more convenient, safer, more comfortable, more enjoyable while losing nothing.

 

[Dr Wu]

Did you ever consider that these folks who didn't use the BC way back then, didn't use it because there was no such thing as BC's and if there were, they would have used them?

Probably. As that little piece of information has been mentioned several times in this thread.

BTW, I am not arguing against your right to not use a BC for whatever rationalization you have, I am only saying that using a BC is the most convenient, more enjoyable and safer way of diving for the greater majority of "recreational" divers. I am also saying that it is not a "cop out" to us the BC.

No. You said controlling buoyancy without a BC was "physically impossible".

You hav been corrected on this point several times.

 

[Kern]

& I thought this was gunna be a 'quiet' nite----Who's selling the popcorn for the later rounds???---& any drinks to go along with it???.......................

No, it's the middle of the day after.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

(Emphasis added)

I am not picking a fight with Bob - he is free to interpret this post as he sees fit.

Just as I interpret every one of your posts ... as the words of a 50-dive expert who's read everything and lacks the practical experience to comprehend most of it. You might actually be able to learn something if you weren't so convinced you already know it all.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I fail to see how this statement can be literally correct. If Bob means to say "which partly negates any benefit they got from the safety stop" then I agree. I don't see how a rapid ascent can completely negate the benefits of a safety stop, provided that your dive was deeper than the stop. Or am I missing something?

I was taught by ACUC and NAUI that 30 ft/s was a safe ascent rate above 30 fsw, which would mean that this is an appropriate ascent rate from the safety stop to the surface. Do others disagree with this? Is there a more appropriate value that used to be taught?

Yes, I disagree with this ... try 30 feet per minute!

Yes ... you're missing something ... and I ain't about to waste my time explaining it to you, because you'll just find some nasty way to nitpick words and create another argument ... and I don't have the patience to deal you anymore.

Here's a clue ... one thing you haven't learned from all your book reading is simple arithmetic.

Review what I said ... "and are on the surface a few seconds later"...

A few seconds from 15 feet ... so tell me ... at 30 fpm, how long should it take you to surface from your safety stop? And for extra credit ... if it takes five seconds to surface from 15 feet, what's the ascent rate?

Now ask yourself ... what does rapid ascent from 15 feet to the surface mean to you ... based on all that reading you've done?

I understand it's cold and frozen where you live, and you've probably got a terminal case of cabin fever ... but you can only learn so much from a book, mpetryk... at some point you've got to get in the water and learn what the words actually mean.

Or maybe quit trying to be argumentative once in a while and listen when people try to explain it to you.

I generally try to be helpful, mpetryk... but in your case, it's just piss in the wind ... to my concern, you're a waste of bandwidth ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)