TSA got you down?
- Thread starter naimis
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Well....
There is always going to be a rub between privacy and security. Clearly people and societies (some more than others) are willing to give up privacy in order to at least *feel* safe.
I am. To a certain extent. I don't like getting on an airplane if security is lax. There are too many crazy people in this world. Really.
On the other hand, I think increasing measures of security is a game of "diminishing returns". At some point you're stripping people (literally) of their privacy for no measurable increase in security. There should be a measureable benefit or you won't be able to explain it to people.
Pictures like the one I linked here are supposed to be intended to prove that body scanners are a good idea but seriously..... Would that guy get through a standard metal detector? If this is the "evidence" in favour of body scanners then I'm not impressed.
R..
There is always going to be a rub between privacy and security. Clearly people and societies (some more than others) are willing to give up privacy in order to at least *feel* safe.
I am. To a certain extent. I don't like getting on an airplane if security is lax. There are too many crazy people in this world. Really.
On the other hand, I think increasing measures of security is a game of "diminishing returns". At some point you're stripping people (literally) of their privacy for no measurable increase in security. There should be a measureable benefit or you won't be able to explain it to people.
Pictures like the one I linked here are supposed to be intended to prove that body scanners are a good idea but seriously..... Would that guy get through a standard metal detector? If this is the "evidence" in favour of body scanners then I'm not impressed.
R..
Mike Boswell
Contributor
Over the years, like most people, I have had various experiences with law enforcement. Most have been good but some have not. The only thing I can say for sure is, one's own attitude makes a huge difference in the outcome.
A cop or security officer can see a dick coming a mile away, and they just don't think they should have to put up with any grief in order to do their job.
A cop or security officer can see a dick coming a mile away, and they just don't think they should have to put up with any grief in order to do their job.
ScubaSteve
Wow.....what a DB
BTW, I agree that they should not have to put up with grief in their job. So why should the innocent traveller have to put up with TSA's grief/****ty attitude? Sorry but I have to deal with asses in my job and it is expected that I do not treat others poorly just because someone else was an ass. By accepting the position I accepted that responsibility. The problem is that the TSA are not really measured on how they treat the public unless there could be a lawsuit involved IMO. I believe we should have the right to treat every TSA agent in the same manner as they treat us. Unfortunately that is one sided and only the traveller would land themselves in jail for it. The TSA agent likely gets a raise and a promotion.
irishsquid
Contributor
I haven't had to travel by air in a while. So I haven't had much experience with the TSA of late. What I hear and read of the procedures and their benefit reminds me of an incident that happened to me a few years ago. We have a musical event every year here in Chattanooga. It lasts a week and downtown is pretty much shut down to traffic and the streets are filled w/pedestrians. My family and I were walking into the event when a LEO hollered, "Hey you, come here." I wasn't paying attention to anything/anyone in particular, so he runs to me and berates me saying, "I told you to come here." I'm wondering WTF did I do. He procedes to let me know that I have to remove my Stars and Stripes bandana I'm wearing before I can enter. I ask what law or ordinance states that condition. He then lets me know that there is an expectation of trouble between some rival gangs, who wear red or blue bandanas. "Uhhh, I'm wearing a Stars and Stripes and is there a gang that wears this in the expected troubles. Nope, but if you want in, you will remove it because I said so". No one wore bandanas that night that I could see. If my family wasn't with me and I hadn't spent the $150.00 he would have had to arrest me and I would have gladly took my day in court. As it was, 2 bangers were shot a couple streets over that night. What does this have to do with the "security" measures in the airports? Agents and Officials are working by the seat of their pants, making up rules as they go, for the appearances that they are doing something and protecting people when they really aren't.
Bhtmec2
Contributor
This thread is not bad but some people should get a grip with reality.
As a LEO I would not be allowed to perform my job the way TSA does with the general public. There is a major difference in dealing with a Person and a Suspect. Just my way of categorizing people.
Definition: Person – is an individual doing their everyday task and not breaking any law, social norm, etc….. (95% plus of the normal society)
Suspect – is an individual that is under suspicion of an infraction of a Law, misconduct outside of Social Norms, Seen doing a criminal act……etc
You get my point.
Well I do not want any one touching any one or me in a way that I was raised as an inappropriate manor in the normal conduct of your life. Personal space thing and privacy issues. I would have major issues with this type of pat down of my daughter or significant other like I have seen just for a random course of business.
Lets put this issue in perspective. 1st Air flight is not a right. 2nd it is regulated by federal regulations and law. 3rd our security is a stake due to a lot of nuts out there.
Now what should be done in our current threat environment……. Body scan….. Well I have no issue with that if it will reduce the likely hood of another 9/11…….. Should you for what ever reason refuse the scan than you get a pat down. Well if you are going to refuse you have put yourself in a situation that you may not like…. Your decision BUT…… Here is a way to check you for hidden items without getting too intimate…. (JUST my 2 cents)
My way to handle this would be after they opt out of the body scan….
1st wand the individual – this get's a read for metal objects… We have been doing it for a long time……
2nd step that individual gets a normal pat down as has been done for a while to find any non metal objects hidden on your body……
3rd step is the individual gets an IONSCAN done on their hands and clothes….. Just like they do on bags….. If you have been in contact with explosives you will alarm….hell I alarm sometimes as I am in contact due to work.
Granted this will take a little more time but will cut down on the personal issues everyone is crying about.
The body scan will not hurt anyone even if you are a airline worker going through constantly……. All these special interest groups start crying and they modify the rules if you yell enough. Prime example are Pilots, then the Flight attendants, the Religious groups say it violates this or that etc. etc.. etc…….
I remember when I swore in on active duty in the military and they told me I lost some freedoms that the general public had and I had no problem with it as it came with the territory….. well if you want to fly you are going to have to give up a few things to keep nuts from being to fly any more planes into innocent buildings full of people.
Our Real Problem in our PC society is we need to quit worrying who we might offend and deal with the real problem. Target the demographic that wants to kill us. Quit worrying that someone will say you are profiling….. Quit apologizing for our country's actions (POTUS and Congress) and target who you have to. I can tell you that we have not had a 75yr old white, catholic woman try to blow up a plane here in the US. We have not had Jimmy the 5yr old WASP kid from Gulfport try to take over an AC yet. I would recommend that we use the Israeli model of security for air transport. They have no problems and they are in the middle of a hornets nest that want to do them in.
Now lets talk about the TSA employees….. Well who would want their job….. not me. The have a thankless job but they asked for the work so Get a grip and conduct your self as a professional. Ok I know they are not the highest paid workers but they hired on of their own free will and they have to put a happy face on it and their job is public relations and security. They are not LEO's they are Security let me make that really clear….
The public needs to also treat them better but TSA security personnel need to quit this Gestapo attitude and quit trying to make every passenger that ask a question or ask to do something in private into a federal case and threaten them with being locked up and or a large fine. The make a thereat first attitude has to go. If someone does not want to be pleasant then have a special line with actual LEO's handling it and have them process them. If you miss your flight then you miss your flight. This is a hard subject to balance but it has to be done. I have seen this way too often and it is due to the fact some people just should not be given that kind of perceived power that they all have. It also goes to the fact that some pretty low end individuals have hired on. TSA in its inception post 9/11 threw out a net to create a work force and a lot of them would have never been hired in any local, state or Fed force if they applied. TSA need to professionalize their people and hold them to the same public standard of interaction as all LEO's, EMS, etc emergency workers……..
This is just my perspective and does not represent any policy of any gov agency…… See I had to throw in the disclaimer…..
Well back to my hole……
As a LEO I would not be allowed to perform my job the way TSA does with the general public. There is a major difference in dealing with a Person and a Suspect. Just my way of categorizing people.
Definition: Person – is an individual doing their everyday task and not breaking any law, social norm, etc….. (95% plus of the normal society)
Suspect – is an individual that is under suspicion of an infraction of a Law, misconduct outside of Social Norms, Seen doing a criminal act……etc
You get my point.
Well I do not want any one touching any one or me in a way that I was raised as an inappropriate manor in the normal conduct of your life. Personal space thing and privacy issues. I would have major issues with this type of pat down of my daughter or significant other like I have seen just for a random course of business.
Lets put this issue in perspective. 1st Air flight is not a right. 2nd it is regulated by federal regulations and law. 3rd our security is a stake due to a lot of nuts out there.
Now what should be done in our current threat environment……. Body scan….. Well I have no issue with that if it will reduce the likely hood of another 9/11…….. Should you for what ever reason refuse the scan than you get a pat down. Well if you are going to refuse you have put yourself in a situation that you may not like…. Your decision BUT…… Here is a way to check you for hidden items without getting too intimate…. (JUST my 2 cents)
My way to handle this would be after they opt out of the body scan….
1st wand the individual – this get's a read for metal objects… We have been doing it for a long time……
2nd step that individual gets a normal pat down as has been done for a while to find any non metal objects hidden on your body……
3rd step is the individual gets an IONSCAN done on their hands and clothes….. Just like they do on bags….. If you have been in contact with explosives you will alarm….hell I alarm sometimes as I am in contact due to work.
Granted this will take a little more time but will cut down on the personal issues everyone is crying about.
The body scan will not hurt anyone even if you are a airline worker going through constantly……. All these special interest groups start crying and they modify the rules if you yell enough. Prime example are Pilots, then the Flight attendants, the Religious groups say it violates this or that etc. etc.. etc…….
I remember when I swore in on active duty in the military and they told me I lost some freedoms that the general public had and I had no problem with it as it came with the territory….. well if you want to fly you are going to have to give up a few things to keep nuts from being to fly any more planes into innocent buildings full of people.
Our Real Problem in our PC society is we need to quit worrying who we might offend and deal with the real problem. Target the demographic that wants to kill us. Quit worrying that someone will say you are profiling….. Quit apologizing for our country's actions (POTUS and Congress) and target who you have to. I can tell you that we have not had a 75yr old white, catholic woman try to blow up a plane here in the US. We have not had Jimmy the 5yr old WASP kid from Gulfport try to take over an AC yet. I would recommend that we use the Israeli model of security for air transport. They have no problems and they are in the middle of a hornets nest that want to do them in.
Now lets talk about the TSA employees….. Well who would want their job….. not me. The have a thankless job but they asked for the work so Get a grip and conduct your self as a professional. Ok I know they are not the highest paid workers but they hired on of their own free will and they have to put a happy face on it and their job is public relations and security. They are not LEO's they are Security let me make that really clear….
The public needs to also treat them better but TSA security personnel need to quit this Gestapo attitude and quit trying to make every passenger that ask a question or ask to do something in private into a federal case and threaten them with being locked up and or a large fine. The make a thereat first attitude has to go. If someone does not want to be pleasant then have a special line with actual LEO's handling it and have them process them. If you miss your flight then you miss your flight. This is a hard subject to balance but it has to be done. I have seen this way too often and it is due to the fact some people just should not be given that kind of perceived power that they all have. It also goes to the fact that some pretty low end individuals have hired on. TSA in its inception post 9/11 threw out a net to create a work force and a lot of them would have never been hired in any local, state or Fed force if they applied. TSA need to professionalize their people and hold them to the same public standard of interaction as all LEO's, EMS, etc emergency workers……..
This is just my perspective and does not represent any policy of any gov agency…… See I had to throw in the disclaimer…..
Well back to my hole……
ScubaSteve
Wow.....what a DB
Ok so some agents can frisk me for as long as they want......if they just smartened up and updated their HR policies the upset public would be much more tolerant of stricter security.
The hiring policy for the TSA could be updated to include everybody's choices.
The hiring policy for the TSA could be updated to include everybody's choices.
fresh_fish
Contributor
I don't mind if they question everyone, as long as the one asking is trained adequately. I would say that profiling is fine, but being a short, white, female puts me in a category that I'd get flamed for, as I'd be "lower risk". Anyway...
Before the passport thing at the Canada border, I remember being questioned. Where are you going, why, how long will you be there, etc. And if you gave a suspicious answer, or something was honkey, they would have you pull over, and they would check your documents, search your car, etc. I'm OK with that!!!
Every time I go on a plane, I have a reason, I know how long (I have a return flight), and I usually know what cities I will be in once I arrive at the destination. Yes, that stuff can be fudged, but it gives several points to make a mistake especially if the questions can change (in the case of lying), and it gives the questioner time to watch your body language and microexpressions.
Before the passport thing at the Canada border, I remember being questioned. Where are you going, why, how long will you be there, etc. And if you gave a suspicious answer, or something was honkey, they would have you pull over, and they would check your documents, search your car, etc. I'm OK with that!!!
Every time I go on a plane, I have a reason, I know how long (I have a return flight), and I usually know what cities I will be in once I arrive at the destination. Yes, that stuff can be fudged, but it gives several points to make a mistake especially if the questions can change (in the case of lying), and it gives the questioner time to watch your body language and microexpressions.
Wookie
Proud to be a Chaos Muppet
Staff member
ScubaBoard Business Sponsor
ScubaBoard Supporter
Scuba Instructor
snip
I'm a honkey, and I don't mind being profiled.
I'm a honkey, and I don't mind being profiled.
From Texas Penal Code 22.01 Assault:
Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.
(c) An offense under Subsection (a)(2) or (3) is a Class C misdemeanor, except that the offense is:
(1) a Class A misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a)(3) against an elderly individual or disabled individual, as those terms are defined by Section 22.04;
The above quote is the law to protect any person within the borders of the State of Texas from unaccepted contact. The difference within the airport and with TSA protocols is that you are knowingly accepting the security protocols associated with the use of the convenience airport travel offers. At any point you can choose to decline to participate in the security protocols and not use the services provided by the airport.
The security measures do not violate our rights provided by the US Constitution because we are not required to use airports. Airports are a convenience, not a requirement. If you choose the convenience an airport offers, then you choose to accept the security protocols required to use the convenience. Our rights would only be vioated if we did not have the choice.
I can see a huge potential for lawsuits against companies who demote or terminate employment due to an employee's refusal to fly due to the new security protocols. I see such actions as being closer to violating a person's rights than the security protocols themselves.
I do understand the importance of security and know that tactics need to be ever changing to deter criminals. I understand air travel is simply a convenience and do not see the need to place the convenience over the dignity of my family.
Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.
(c) An offense under Subsection (a)(2) or (3) is a Class C misdemeanor, except that the offense is:
(1) a Class A misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a)(3) against an elderly individual or disabled individual, as those terms are defined by Section 22.04;
The above quote is the law to protect any person within the borders of the State of Texas from unaccepted contact. The difference within the airport and with TSA protocols is that you are knowingly accepting the security protocols associated with the use of the convenience airport travel offers. At any point you can choose to decline to participate in the security protocols and not use the services provided by the airport.
The security measures do not violate our rights provided by the US Constitution because we are not required to use airports. Airports are a convenience, not a requirement. If you choose the convenience an airport offers, then you choose to accept the security protocols required to use the convenience. Our rights would only be vioated if we did not have the choice.
I can see a huge potential for lawsuits against companies who demote or terminate employment due to an employee's refusal to fly due to the new security protocols. I see such actions as being closer to violating a person's rights than the security protocols themselves.
I do understand the importance of security and know that tactics need to be ever changing to deter criminals. I understand air travel is simply a convenience and do not see the need to place the convenience over the dignity of my family.
Last edited:
Similar threads
