Unrealistic Deco Time

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Well, yeah, as a physics term, and in fact, but...
"Recompression" as a term in diving is a treatment:

(snip)

ianr33 is correct. :)
Rick

Yep, he is correct - as you said, in the realm of the diving community... That "in-water recompression" is generally a term used to describe the medical treatment of an individual afflicted with symptomatic DCI (DCS).

But that doesn't tell the whole story... The physiological issue does not cease to exist because the patient neglects to complains or seek medical attention. The physiological condition of offgassing (with larger than normal bubbles in tissues) exists whether it causes the diver to complain or not - or seek medical attention or not.

...Which is why it doesn't make sense to define "in-water recompression" based on whether or not the diver is symptomatic... It makes far more sense to define it as whenever the diver recompresses in the water - like what the OP did.

I don't disagree with you - that within the diving community, the phrase generally means the treatment of someone who's symptomatic... But what difference does that make?
 
... But what difference does that make?
In communicating ideas "the message received is the message." We need a common vocabulary; we need to agree on what words mean so we can avoid misunderstandings.
The diving world is full of terms that have specific meanings that are inaccurate outside their context.
We all understand what is meant by a "no decompression dive" even though the term is an oxymoron and there really isn't any such thing... technically (unless, of course, you never come back up!).
Unless we accept a common meaning for such things as "depth," "bottom time," etc., our discussions of decompression theory lose meaning - and accuracy - in a hurry.
"Recompression" is one of those terms that has a meaning other than just "an increase in pressure after a decrease in pressure."
If we're going to use the term in discussions of "Deco," let's stick to its diving context meaning (see NOAA Diving Manual definition). Otherwise, we might confuse someone.
What the OP did was (unknowingly, probably, but a pretty good guess) follow a missed stop decompression strategy, not "recompression."
And that's what difference it makes.
:)
Rick
P.S. See the Royal Navy's "Surface Decompression" protocol as a good starting point as to why this missed stop procedure isn't that much out of the mainstream.
 
It's not out of the mainstream with the USN Diving Manual, either.

I don't agree with the concept that, "just because it's the norm," we should use a term that's a little bit of a misnomer - or indescriptive of what's really going on. I believe that calling EAN "nitrox" for example (which is a nondescript term from air, which, too, is "nitrox") is also one of these misnomers. Ditto for the term "no-decompression diving" (as you mentioned), and even the term "waterproof" (after all, even submarines are "waterproof" only to a certain depth).

To me, the stuff that I put in my boats to make them go is "fuel" and not "gas," even though my boats have gasoline motors... 'Cause the stuff that goes in my scuba cylinders (they're not "tanks," which are what holds the fuel on my boats) is gas. Sometimes that gas is 21%, sometimes it's 32%, 50%, or 100% (which is a reference to it's active ingredient). To further simplify the system, my guys don't call it "21%" or "32%"... They call it by it's MOD - "70" or "20" or "120" or "210" or "190" or whatever. This really simplifies the whole process in my company, and refers to the only definitive difference between different gasses that matters.

Is that the norm? No... We find it hilarious when we go into a shop at a remote dive site and ask for a 210 mix and they look at us like we've lost our marbles. :)

PADI and the world calls it "DCS." Those in the medical community call it "DCI." Divers frequently call it "bent." The problem is, no matter what you call it, the term can't be defined by whether or not the diver exhibits symptoms or not... The affliction can happen even if the diver is asymptomatic, and does, in fact, happen to a small, asymptomatic non-problematic degree on every dive.

If you want to reserve the term "DCS" as only that bodily fizzing which causes a problem, then the issue is that the already complicated system of variables within an individual and from person to person is further obscured by whether or not the diver notices symptoms, whether or not he or she complains about it, and then whether or not the diver seeks or is even able to seek medical attention or treatment for the issue.

To analogize DCS to opening a bottle of soda, it's not fair to say that the liquid only bubbles if your hand gets wet when you open it. The reality is that the liquid inside the bottle always fizzes... And that, the more you shake it and the faster you open it, the more of a problem it's going to create. Using a computer (and various algorithms) to figure out exactly the point at which the liquid leaves the bottle explosively, drenching you and everyone around you isn't the point... And it's not much safer to know that exact point and go right up to it and ride that line. It makes far more sense to simply minimize the possibility of it exploding in the first place. And it shouldn't surprise anyone who "rides that line" when the calculations are a bit off and yeah, everyone around them gets soaked.

So yes, I recognize that, within the diving community, the term "in-water recompresion" is generally a term reserved only for those divers who are exhibiting symptoms of DCI (excessive fizzing that is bad enough to cause issues), have been medically diagnosed with the issue, and are therefore being medically treated in the water in an attempt to minimize the size of the bubbles.

...But that's a misnomer, and, contrary to your insistence, is NOT "correct." The term "in-water recompression" means, "compressing in the water again" - no more, and no less - and does not preclude a medical diagnosis of DCI.

For what it's worth, the NOAA Diving Manual, which you refer to in terms of definitions, recommends that the procedure for a missed stop include the surface administration of 100% oxygen, not "in-water recompression." Ditto for all of the recreational dive agencies that I know of, and Diver's Alert Network/Duke Hyperbaric, who is clearly the world's leading authority on the matter. I can't imagine that the Royal Navy's manual says anything different, regardless of whether or not you consider what the OP did a "missed stop procedure" (which is what it was) or an "in-water recompression" (which is also what it was).

I see that none of the specifics regarding definitions matter. What I see is that the OP took on too much N2, needed more gas than he had to offgas safely, missed a whopping 30 minutes of staged decompression, then followed a non-recommended procedure for his missed decompression stop, even though every agency around recommends a specific procedure that includes only oxygen at the surface, and nothing about doing anything in the water. For this series of mistakes, the OP paid a penalty of zero - believe it or not, he totally got away with it - and now he's wondering what's wrong with his computer, which clearly wasn't the problem.

...Which results in you and I disagreeing about the specific definition of "in-water recompression," even though we both agree that the dive community as a whole generally has defined it differently than it's words suggest. I contest that the subject of definition specifics should not be the overrding theme of this thread... I think it obscures the useful parts of this thread.
 
... We find it hilarious when we go into a shop at a remote dive site and ask for a 210 mix and they look at us like we've lost our marbles. :)...
Well, I might look at you a little sideways... I'd certainly ask "and what END and max PO2 would you like for that '210' mix?" just to make sure *my* 210 mix is the same as *your* 210 mix. (I use the 'He(D-END)/D + EAN32' method... do you?) So if you said "whatever's your norm," you'd get 18/45. I have no idea (yet) if that's what you like for 210; it's what I like.
As I said before, "the message received is the message." You can parse words and whine about their lack of purity all day long, but if you want to be clearly understood then you need to use what the recipient of the message uses, not what you think the recipient ought to use. "Finding it hilarious" when someone else doesn't know your private code is not helpful. Or kind.
You just have to ask yourself "Do I want to be understood?" Or is it more important to take the time to educate this fellow in the errors of his vocabulary?
Sometimes that education is a worthwhile project; usually it's just inefficient.
Rick
 
*sigh*

It's not "private code." "Private code" is understanding something other than what the words mean, which is what you're implying is the better option. It's what the dive industry is doing - and what we are recommending against.

For what it's worth, and since you asked, I don't dive "air" at 210 feet... But that's not the point. Why would you choose to dive a mix AT it's MOD? Why wouldn't you go for a safer gas? Again, there is no reason to push the envelope. A 210 MOD isn't the best gas to use at 210 - it's just that 210 is the max depth for that gas.

...So my answer to you would be, "I don't want to dive at 210 feet - I want a mix that has a max operating depth of 210 feet." Or rather, in real life I'd just look at you and say, "Air, please."

...But then again, I know you know this - you're just getting all wadded up and angry 'cause someone looks at diving realistically, and not with the "Hey, everyone is thinking this way, so I guess I'll go with the flow" sort of way.

There's nothing unkind about that. :)
 
But, SeaJay, what Rick is pointing out (with great patience) is that there are a LOT of mixes with an MOD of 210, depending on how much helium you want in it. So asking for a "210 mix" gives the person making it too little information to give you what you want. YOU know what END you're running, but they don't. Therefore your use of your own descriptor has failed to do the job.

And there are a LOT of things in medicine where the underlying problem exists but has to get to a certain degree of severity before there are symptoms. And we don't call it by the name of the disease until it reaches a certain point -- diabetes is a perfect example of this. I don't think it is at all fair or reasonable to say that every diver experiences decompression SICKNESS every time he dives. Every diver experiences on and offgassing, and most experience bubbling. But few experience symptoms or significant tissue damage from the process. You don't have an illness if you are not unwell.

I believe, as you do, that every dive is a decompression dive. But one must use terms in the fashion in which they are generally accepted, or communication breaks down.
 
*sigh*

It's not "private code." "Private code" is understanding something other than what the words mean, which is what you're implying is the better option. It's what the dive industry is doing - and what we are recommending against.

For what it's worth, and since you asked, I don't dive "air" at 210 feet... But that's not the point. Why would you choose to dive a mix AT it's MOD? Why wouldn't you go for a safer gas? Again, there is no reason to push the envelope. A 210 MOD isn't the best gas to use at 210 - it's just that 210 is the max depth for that gas.

...So my answer to you would be, "I don't want to dive at 210 feet - I want a mix that has a max operating depth of 210 feet." Or rather, in real life I'd just look at you and say, "Air, please."

...But then again, I know you know this - you're just getting all wadded up and angry 'cause someone looks at diving realistically, and not with the "Hey, everyone is thinking this way, so I guess I'll go with the flow" sort of way.

There's nothing unkind about that. :)
*Sigh* yourself.
I'm not even remotely angry.
I am flexible, responsive and enthusiastic, but...
I still don't know what you really want in your "210 mix!"
So you get 18/45, which is my preference for a gas suitable for "210."
If that's not what you wanted, you failed in your communication.
If you were to go to a GUE shop and asked for a "210 mix" you'd get 15/55. (they may be changing or have changed to 16/45)
If you want air, just say so. And if you said "air" and "210" in the same breath, then I would look at you like you'd lost your marbles, and you could revel in your own hilarity at my ignorance of what you really meant. We - the folks I dive with - wouldn't be laughing, but we'd likely be amused... and more than a little concerned for your safety. I reckon you'd find that hilarious too, eh?
As to why you'd choose to dive a gas at its MOD, the answer is because that is the point at which you accumulate the least deco obligation; the least inert gas absorption, and, in accordance with your own analysis of what happens on every dive (bubbles), less inert gas would be a good thing, and you'd naturally reach the same conclusion. *You* establish the MOD based on what *you* consider safe... if it ain't "safe enough" then it's your responsibility to move its PO2 set point to your definition of safe.

Rick
 
Jeez, talk about a tangent...

Rick, I said, "Air, please." Happy?

Some days it astounds me how hard people make this.

You don't have an illness if you are not unwell.

At Duke University's Hyperbaric Center, we called it, "pre-DCI" or "pre-DCS." Does that terminology make y'all happy?

What I was pointing out above is that whatever you want to call it (it amazes me how wrapped around the axle this has gotten), the facts are the same... And I don't think we disagree on anything besides what to call things.

I was really hoping that this thread wouldn't turn into a thread about definitions... See where I said:

I see that none of the specifics regarding definitions matter. What I see is that the OP took on too much N2, needed more gas than he had to offgas safely, missed a whopping 30 minutes of staged decompression, then followed a non-recommended procedure for his missed decompression stop, even though every agency around recommends a specific procedure that includes only oxygen at the surface, and nothing about doing anything in the water. For this series of mistakes, the OP paid a penalty of zero - believe it or not, he totally got away with it - and now he's wondering what's wrong with his computer, which clearly wasn't the problem.

...Which results in you and I disagreeing about the specific definition of "in-water recompression," even though we both agree that the dive community as a whole generally has defined it differently than it's words suggest. I contest that the subject of definition specifics should not be the overrding theme of this thread... I think it obscures the useful parts of this thread.

Gotta get back underwater... :) Let me know how this argument comes out. :)
 
I am not going to pretend to be even remotely versed, and it is somewhat frightening to step into the middle of this battle, but I had a thought regarding the increased deco obligation.

Could the OP have inadvertently exceeded an M-value at some point in the dive (ascent rate), which resulted in an increased obligation?
 
...Back out of the water. :)

I've got to be on a big job in Atlantic City (Yankees! Ack!) Friday morning, which means I'll be traveling from my home near Hilton Head, SC all day tomorrow. I'll be driving, since I've got to bring gear. Anyone on the East Coast want to hook up for a dive or a beer and burger?

craracer (cool avatar - I used to race, too), great question... Unfortunately, the data that that OP showed us proved that he did NOT exceed a 30 ft/min ascent rate. In fact, as he went into "deco" mode on his computer, he ascended REALLY slowly - at a rate of 20 feet every 4 and a half minutes. It was during this time that his computer penalized him and increased his decompression obligation many times over.

In a way, his ascent rate was exceeded when he got out of the water, missing 30 minutes of decompression... He was out of gas, and apparently had no choice (gills on backorder). :)

So... No, and yes. :)

Thank you for bringing this thread back to it's intended topic. :)
 
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