New Diver - Advice on Purchasing Zeagle Express Tech BC

[Hinalo]

As a data point, we (a PADI LDS) encourage people who are going to dive cold water to distribute their lead between BC and weight belt. We go to extremes in class to train students to secure their BC cummerbund above the weight belt so that the weight belt buckle is accessible and there is no overlap anywhere. By the end of the pool sessions everyone has it down. Checking this is a part of the pre-dive buddy check.

Generally students don't have crotch straps, but the guidelines that make the most sense to me in general are that drysuit/BP/W divers with balanced rigs will usually have the weight belt under the crotch strap precisely because they don't want it to fall away. OTOH, thick wetsuit divers may want to rout the weight belt around the outside of the back of the crotchstrap (though doing this kitting up is more of a pita) and under the front of the crotchstrap, where the buckle is still accessible. Another option for divers with crotchstraps is to use a weight harness like DUI weight and trim which has ditchable pockets and is not obstructed by a crotchstrap.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

@Jon Nellis: Jon, thanks for the response. I think it's great that you show so much concern for the dive passengers on your boat. It's apparent that you place a great importance on dive safety. I'm not a captain, dive instructor, divemaster, or tech diver. My experience with diving and assisting in rescues probably pales in comparison to yours, but I'll do my best to explain myself.

That being said, I think we have a different understanding of buoyancy-related diving issues. In your above post, you increased the amount of lead to 36 lbs. from 30 lbs. That changes the calculations...and almost certainly would increase the BCD lift requirement.

Let's use a concrete example for discussing BC lift requirements. My drysuit + undergarment have about 24 lbs. of positive buoyancy. I use a total of 12 lbs. of lead. My tank is a HP100 steel that is 10.5 lbs. negatively buoyant when full. My stainless steel backplate is -6 lbs., my STA is -3 lbs., and reg is -2 lbs. My wing has 30 lbs. of lift. At the beginning of the dive, I have 12 lbs. of lead + 11 lbs. of other ballast (SS BP, STA, reg) + 10.5 lbs. contributed by the tank. In your opinion, is my wing undersized?

Nowhere in any of my previous posts have I suggested that the OP hide a weight belt under a cummerbund. In fact, I think it would be exceedingly difficult to do so because the Zeagle Tech Express lacks a cummerbund. I agree with you that ditchable weight (on a weight belt/harness or in weight-integrated pockets) should be readily accessible. FWIW, in my limited experience with conventional jacket BCs, it has been relatively easy to mount a weight belt below the cummerbund. The cummerbunds with which I am familiar are usually positioned higher up on the waist.

It's my understanding that wearing a weight belt over or under crotch strap is a point of contention in technical diving circles. So long as the weight belt can be released when it needs to be, I don't see any issue with wearing it beneath a crotch strap. As you already know, some divers choose to wear the weight belt under a crotch strap to minimize the possibility of accidental weight belt release, which can have dire consequences on a diver with a decompression obligation.

Your comments regarding weight belts and weight-integrated pouches seem to imply that it's dangerous to use a combination of the two. I agree that placing weights in various places on a rig can complicate things in a rescue scenario. However, the example that you describe resulted from the diver attaching too much weight to his person. It probably would have been better to place some of that ballast on his rig.

On a related note, please don't remove a diver's BCD until you are certain that the diver will be positively buoyant when separated from the BCD. You take an enormous risk by pulling out weight-integrated pockets, removing the diver's BCD, and expecting the diver to float. With an incapacitated or panicked diver, the onus is entirely on the rescuer(s) to get this right. I know of several divers who wear a weight belt/harness with a weight-integrated BCD...and often novice divers are substantially overweighted with little appreciation for how to optimally distribute weight (on person vs. on rig).

 

[saf1]

There are a lot of compromises you could make with your gear configuration to make an undersized wing work, but why? 99% of the divers I get on the boat with integrated BCs have all their lead attached to their rig and I have had a few sink straight to the bottom when they use to have to do surface BC removal as a OW PADI skill. Very educational!

Having the integrated weight is a convenience that you pay a little more for in a good integrated BC or to add to a BP/W. To then go and use a weight belt, kinda makes the money spent on weight integration a waste, not to mention a hassle to put on under the BC and harder to ditch. More importantly, in an emergency, it is one more piece of gear that unfamiliar rescuers don't expect to find under an integrated BC.



Why buy something you know you need to "upgrade" (i.e. spend more money on)? Buyers would be better off if Zeagle made the wing size an option at purchase. I have a feeling Zeagle will figure that out soon enough when the dealers complain that they cant sell there BCs they way come configured from the factory.


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Just for the record you can order or configure Zeagle bc's with various bladders. I put a 44 lb on the product I use from them. It probably depends on who is buying, their knowledge of what they are buying at the time, and the person who is selling them the goods. But the main point is you have options.

 

[Jon Nellis]

I see a wide cross section of divers covering the entire spectrum of experience levels. When I question someone about their weight belt under their crotch strap and they reply that they are aware of the implications, all is well and good, but when they stare back like a deer in the headlight, that's when I know they don't have a contingency plan.

Casey, as for the conclusion that you reached that the incident was "bordering on criminal" based on a readers digest accounting of the events, it is irresponsible and actually libelous. It's no big surprise that ScubaBoard is being sued with comments such as yours.


Bubbletrubble, the 36 lbs I used was from her setup, she was carrying 30lb of lead plus 4lb for the full tank and 2lb for the regs equals 36lb and I didn't include the pound or two for the actual BC weight saturated. As for your rig, if you jumped in the water with your zipper full open (seen that happen) or had a catastrophic seal failure on descent your 30lb wing would be undersized for the 33.5lbs of weight you listed, which doesn't include the now negative drysuit weight which could vary from a little for a trilam to a lot for a Viking. If the seal failure happened at the end of your dive, your wing would probably be sufficient as now your tank is 7lbs lighter and and your total weight is only 26.5lbs, again, not including the weight of your flooded dry suit.

When giving advice on a forum, one needs to assume that the person receiving said advice lacks any experience or common sense whatsoever. True, you never suggested that she hide the weight belt under a cummerbund (since the ET doesn't have one to begin with), but my point is that no one explained the implications of using a weight belt a integrated BC, which is what she now owns. For example, if the person doesn't have (how should I say it) well defined hips to prevent the belt from slipping down, it can be difficult to find a location where it is secure, which usually results in the person hiking the belt up to cummerbund level if the only input they have received is advice from an online forum.

Even if you know the person on the other end is very experienced and chock full of common sense, the advice posted online is read by others who may not be so gifted and ultimately oblivious to the implications. They then have to fill in the blanks for them self and that is not always a good thing.

Your comments regarding weight belts and weight-integrated pouches seem to imply that it's dangerous to use a combination of the two. I agree that placing weights in various places on a rig can complicate things in a rescue scenario. However, the example that you describe resulted from the diver attaching too much weight to his person. It probably would have been better to place some of that ballast on his rig.

On a related note, please don't remove a diver's BCD until you are certain that the diver will be positively buoyant when separated from the BCD. You take an enormous risk by pulling out weight-integrated pockets, removing the diver's BCD, and expecting the diver to float.

The diver did not have too much weight attached, they had what they needed to maintain neutral buoyancy with an empty tank. How it was configured was just a little surprising. I don't strip gear off a diver that I don't have well under control, they weren't going anywhere. It's just another inconvenience when your ready to pull someone into the boat, to have to stop and strip off more gear that wasn't apparent during the first assessment. In reality, the time lost to the hidden weight belt was probably less than 5 seconds, but considering that it takes me less than 5 seconds to pull a divers weight pouches and strip them out of their rig with one hand while the other is holding their head out of the water, I consider the extra 5 seconds significant.

Just for the record you can order or configure Zeagle bc's with various bladders. I put a 44 lb on the product I use from them. It probably depends on who is buying, their knowledge of what they are buying at the time, and the person who is selling them the goods. But the main point is you have options.

That seems more realistic of Zeagle, The OP and video both said the 24 came on it standard so that is what I had to go on.


For those who think I sound like an old coot who thinks all divers are incompetent until proven otherwise, that's because I usually only share the horror stories. Like the AOW cert diver I had recently who got their hood, gloves and mask on and walked to the back of the boat with their fins ready to jump in until I asked them what they were planning on breathing, since they forgot to put on their rig. (serious, true story) Crew a dive boat for a while and you will encounter plenty of folks unknowingly trying to exercise their right to natural selection.

I rejoice, when I do get a group of experienced divers on the boat and I try to offer them dives commensurate with their experience level, like a drift dive down the entire length of Pinnacle of Tremendous Proportions or a two mile scooter/drift dive around Cypress point. When ever I offer a drift dive to experienced divers their first time on the boat, I usually get a double take back from them as they have never done an intentional drift dive here. That's something the bigger boats usually won't do since they have to provide sites to keep the weakest divers safe, not to mention trying to live boat 20 divers would be a PITA. I truly wish all divers were highly experienced, as that would sure make my job a lot more relaxing.


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[SCUBA BEAR]

Hey KLJ. I use the express tech for a warm water set up. I absolutley love it, jumped in and fell in love right away,however having said that I dont dive with a lot of weight in warm water and a 3mm suit max. I would think if you dive in colder water ( i do not so I may ignorant here ) you would want a ss plate so you could take some weight off your waist. As far as the express tech goes it is well made, very adjustable and fits me ( a women ) very nice. I added the rip cord weight pouches to it. I would recomend it to anybody, just unsure about your cold water situation. Hope this helped.
Sherri

 

[Anti-Hero]

Casey, as for the conclusion that you reached that the incident was "bordering on criminal" based on a readers digest accounting of the events, it is irresponsible and actually libelous. It's no big surprise that ScubaBoard is being sued with comments such as yours.
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John, I'm not attacking you, your boat, crew, or the shop I'm assuming was running the dive. I've had pleasant experiences with all of them and hopefully will in the future. The double down is a great boat, and you and Rick are both great captains that I know run a tight ship.

But from what I read, in your own words, a new, albeit certified diver was left alone, at night, 75' behind the boat, in current. That is a highly dangerous situation for a well trained diver, for a new diver it's could be (almost was) a very bad outcome.

And the phrase "almost criminal" isn't even in the ballpark of libel. Hyperbole, maybe - I wasn't there, I'm only going on my readers digest version of what happened.

What also doesn't make any sense is if they had 500 PSI in what I'm guessing was an AL80 (77 ft^3) tank factor of 2.5 ft^3 p/100 PSI would give them 12.5 cu.ft of gas for a 3 min. stop @ 20 ft. (1.6 ATA) - even with an almost hyperventilating SAC rate of 2.0 they would have ~6 min of gas. And that is using an almost unreasonable SAC rate to be conservative. How did they run out of gas?

Moral of the story - New divers - if you're at the surface, alone, day or night. Inflate your SMB if you have one, turn on your light, and STAY PUT!

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Bubbletrubble, the 36 lbs I used was from her setup, she was carrying 30lb of lead plus 4lb for the full tank and 2lb for the regs equals 36lb and I didn't include the pound or two for the actual BC weight saturated. As for your rig, if you jumped in the water with your zipper full open (seen that happen) or had a catastrophic seal failure on descent your 30lb wing would be undersized for the 33.5lbs of weight you listed, which doesn't include the now negative drysuit weight which could vary from a little for a trilam to a lot for a Viking. If the seal failure happened at the end of your dive, your wing would probably be sufficient as now your tank is 7lbs lighter and and your total weight is only 26.5lbs, again, not including the weight of your flooded dry suit.

Thanks for your response. I can't help but feel disappointed with it, though. It's phrases like "now negative drysuit weight" and "the weight of your flooded drysuit" that give me pause. Even a completely flooded drysuit would not be negatively buoyant. The flooded drysuit would, however, have a significant amount of weight (due to the water inside the suit) upon exit from the water.

I believe that we do have a difference of opinion on the topic of buoyancy.

The diver did not have too much weight attached, they had what they needed to maintain neutral buoyancy with an empty tank. How it was configured was just a little surprising. I don't strip gear off a diver that I don't have well under control, they weren't going anywhere. It's just another inconvenience when your ready to pull someone into the boat, to have to stop and strip off more gear that wasn't apparent during the first assessment. In reality, the time lost to the hidden weight belt was probably less than 5 seconds, but considering that it takes me less than 5 seconds to pull a divers weight pouches and strip them out of their rig with one hand while the other is holding their head out of the water, I consider the extra 5 seconds significant.

I bold-faced what I found important. That's a comforting thing to hear from someone who is called upon to provide surface support during a rescue.

Now that you've seen this particular configuration (weight belt in addition to weight-integrated weight pockets) I hope that you won't be so surprised when you see it in the future. A very compelling argument can be made to split up a diver's weight between a weight belt and weight-integrated weight pockets.

For those who think I sound like an old coot who thinks all divers are incompetent until proven otherwise, that's because I usually only share the horror stories.

I honestly don't blame you for having this attitude. Even in my limited experience on dive boats, I've seen some "interesting" things.

I hope that others can take away a few learning points from our discussion. Thanks for sharing your opinions with us. Take care.

 

[Anti-Hero]

Sorry KLJ for the thread hijack - you'll see that this happens a lot. It's not intentional, divers are just passionate people and that leads to some interesting tangents in threads.

 

[Jon Nellis]

Yeah, I left out a few minors details, like the drift line that was less than 20 feet away from the diver, but the current minor as I already had one diver swim the same distance back to the boat without using the drift line. As for blowing through the gas, I doubt the diver was maintaining 15' with no reference at night, not to mention it's hard to suck the last 70 PSI out of the tank. When I grabbed the BC inflator, it would still flow a little air, just not very fast.

A prime example of how panic shuts a diver down. All the diver had to do to self rescue was drop weight, orally inflate or just lay on the inflator button long enough to drain the last few PSI from the tank into the BC. Any one of those actions would have avoided the episode.


On a separate note, Rick STILL doesn't have his captain's ticket, so you should address him as "hey swaby"

 

[Jon Nellis]

Thanks for your response. I can't help but feel disappointed with it, though. It's phrases like "now negative drysuit weight" and "the weight of your flooded drysuit" that give me pause. Even a completely flooded drysuit would not be negatively buoyant.

Unless you have a neoprene drysuit (or possibly a full compressed neoprene suit), your suit will almost certainly sink when completely saturated. I know my CLX50/50 will and it is 1/2 compressed neoprene. Try it if you don't believe me. The next time your suit gets a little funky and needs the inside rinsed out, fill it up and toss it in a pool. The trilam suits aren't too heavy, but the rubber Viking suits with integrated boots will go down like a big chunk of rubber. (because, well, that's what it is, and rubber sinks) Don't count on much flotation from your insulation either. When in doubt test it for yourself, an assumption could prove quite costly.