Take the Nitrox Anti-Fatigue Challenge and post your results here

[DaleC]

Some examples of how studying the causal factors can help shape the study comes from my reading of the use of EAN by athletes. In other discussions people focus on the fact that, at a certain point O2 uptake peaks so that higher O2 levels appear superfluous, but I noticed that higher O2 levels (breathed) reduced the work load on the respiratory muscles. My thoughts at the time were that the brain may interpret lower respiratory WOB as less fatigue. I don't know.

How do higher O2 levels breathed effect the metabolization of lactic acid in the major muscle groups? What is the threshold of exertion for these effects to be measureable? If one walks slowly around the track with/without EAN there may not be a noticable buildup of L.A. but if one sprints there may be. Will EAN effect the levels? What is the difference between sprinting once and sprinting repetitively (as in multi dive/day diving)? I don't know.

What is the threshold for subclinical DCS to manifest and how many divers could be experiencing it as fatiguelike symptoms? Would EAN act to reduce SCDCS and thus fatigue? Does SCDCS manifest itself more so the longer one is diving and could this be why some divers experience less fatigue on multi dive/day dives? I don't know.

So far, most people just point to one limited experiment and conclude proof positive that EAN produces nothing more than a placebo effect. I am not so easily convinced either way but I do see room for more study.

 

[Diver0001]

If one walks slowly around the track with/without EAN there may not be a noticable buildup of L.A. but if one sprints there may be. Will EAN effect the levels? What is the difference between sprinting once and sprinting repetitively (as in multi dive/day diving)? I don't know.

Sprinting can't be compared to diving and multiple sprints can't be compared to multi-day diving. Normally a diver will never reach anything near anaerobic levels of exertion and ordinarily our heart rates will hardly be elevated above "resting" levels

To use your analogy, multi-day diving is best compared to slow walks around the track at 24 hour intervals.

R..

 

[DaleC]

OK.
I was just offering a way of looking at what we know and what the causal effects might be, but you bring up one of the many factors that would need to be thought of. What is the exertion rate of various dives (light to extremely strenuous)? One could rig divers with telemetry to record resp/heart rate and PO2 saturation levels doing those dives and then compare them to other land based activities. Once that was done, dry land experiments could then be devised using those activities. I do believe that dry land experiments offer a far greater degree of control over the variables.

 

[Thalassamania]

I was questioning your statement that you think Nitrox does have an effect on reduction of fatigue on multiple dives over multiple days.

and I presented rather telling evidence that is has such an effect, evidence that is rather better than that which would be deemed acceptable by the FDA if it had been a drug trial.

 

[idocsteve]

and I presented rather telling evidence that is has such an effect, evidence that is rather better than that which would be deemed acceptable by the FDA if it had been a drug trial.

Your evidence was subjective and not obtained from any thing even close to a controlled double blind study.

 

[Thalassamania]

Let's start again and make it as clear as possible:

On cruises before we used EAN late night work in the lab by those diving (after about day three) was minimal, similarly people would be behind in their paperwork and attendance at the films after dinner was light. People napped after eating lunch, dives were often put off till 15:00.

Once we started using EAN there were divers in the lab at all hours, paperwork was much more timely, attendance at films and social functions was noticeably higher People did not nap (as much) after lunch and dives that were on the schedule for 13:00 were done.

There's not a single subjective criterion there.

BTW: We all felt better too - that's subjective.

 

[idocsteve]

Once we started using EAN there were divers in the lab at all hours, paperwork was much more timely, attendance at films and social functions was noticeably higher People did not nap (as much) after lunch and dives that were on the schedule for 13:00 were done.

There's not a single subjective criterion there.

BTW: We all felt better too - that's subjective.

The divers knew they were diving Nitrox therefore the placebo affect has not been controlled and your observations and results are worthless.

 

[Thalassamania]

Do you really think that people changed their behaviors, for weeks on end, in order to make some fool point about air vs. EAN?

 

[idocsteve]

Do you really think that people changed their behaviors, for weeks on end, in order to make some fool point about air vs. EAN?

No, but I really think that the placebo effect is a known, understood, and accepted phenomenon. Which is why every reliable and valid scientific experiment takes it into account.

Whether a diver feels better after diving Nitrox on a single dive or following multiple dives, that subjective feeling means nothing if the diver knows that he's diving Nitrox.

That's the whole point of designing an experiment that controls for the placebo effect.

 

[iztok]

Do you really think that people changed their behaviors, for weeks on end, in order to make some fool point about air vs. EAN?

No. But people believe all sorts of things w/o any evidence of it working and it does change their behavior.