Take the Nitrox Anti-Fatigue Challenge and post your results here

[Thalassamania]

Once again, my data has nothing to do with asking anyone who they feel, it is an observation of the objective results of how they feel. I can not possibly envision a placebo effect strong enough to account for the observed results.

 

[idocsteve]

Once again, my data has nothing to do with asking anyone who they feel, it is an observation of the objective results of how they feel. I can not possibly envision a placebo effect strong enough to account for the observed results.

You can't envision it but fact is the placebo effect can be quite strong, strong enough to cure some medical conditions and eliminate or reduce severe pain for example, which is why it is recognized by the medical and scientific community and is controlled for in every valid experiment that is ever done.

Nothing wrong with an objective evaluation of someone else's subjective reports of how they feel, in fact that is part of the experiment that is the topic of this thread.

The problem is that their subjective reports are based on the fact that they KNOW they are diving Nitrox and therefore their subjective reports are now invalid.

 

[Thalassamania]

Placebo effect has never been shown to CURE any organic disease or traumatic injury. It has been shown to have a rather weakly correlation and a statistically insignificant effect, on a wide range of conditions, with a statistically significant effect only on pain and similar subjective phenomena (Hróbjartsson A, Gøtzsche PC (2001). "Is the placebo powerless? An analysis of clinical trials comparing placebo with no treatment". New England Journal of Medicine 344 (21): 1594–1602). This study was confirmed by a Cochraine review (Hróbjartsson A, Gøtzsche PC (2004). "Placebo interventions for all clinical conditions". Cochrane Database Syst Rev (3): CD003974).

Quaint belief in the "placebo effect" lives on in medicine and the public mind much that way Zoologists continue to classify the Giant Panda as a raccoon rather than a bear. Why? Because we'd like it to be so, but it ain't ... and the data doesn't support it.

To write my observations off as possible "placebo effect" does great violence to what is actually know about placebos, though I'd be happy to grant that "fatigue," taken by itself, may be one of the subjective continua that may well, like pain, be sensitive to placebo as Hróbjartsson found.

 

[Papa_Bear]

All I know is it my gas of preference and will always use it if available, so I don't care if I am wasting money or not! I know it makes a difference with my physiology to allow me 5 dives a day and more time at depth! That is all I care about and all the studies in the world won't change that! I like Voodoo it's part of the adventure!

 

[idocsteve]

though I'd be happy to grant that "fatigue," taken by itself, may be one of the subjective continua that may well, like pain, be sensitive to placebo as Hróbjartsson found.

Ok, great.

We agree that the placebo effect must be considered when evaluating subjective conditions such as fatigue, which of course is the topic of this thread.

 

[Thalassamania]

But I am citing direct and objective measures, not "feelings," so lets put it away and move on.

 

[DaleC]

Whether a diver feels better after diving Nitrox on a single dive or following multiple dives, that subjective feeling means nothing if the diver knows that he's diving Nitrox.

You can't envision it but fact is the placebo effect can be quite strong, strong enough to cure some medical conditions and eliminate or reduce severe pain...

You can't have it both ways. Either it means something or it does not. One cannot discount the placebo effect in one sentence and then attribute powers strong enough to cure medical conditions in the other.

BTW: What evidence do you have that the reduction of fatigue like symtoms is solely a Placebo effect phenomenon anyways? One, limited, study that does not fully explore a full range of variables cannot be said to provide "proof" of a non event.

Do you have anything besides that study to back up your assertions?

 

[idocsteve]

You can't have it both ways. Either it means something or it does not. One cannot discount the placebo effect in one sentence and then attribute powers strong enough to cure medical conditions in the other.

BTW: What evidence do you have that the reduction of fatigue like symtoms is solely a Placebo effect phenomenon anyways? One, limited, study that does not fully explore a full range of variables cannot be said to provide "proof" of a non event.

Do you have anything besides that study to back up your assertions?

DaleC, I believe you misunderstood my posts, they do not contradict one another. You cannot discount the placebo effect because it has powers strong enough to cure some medical conditions.

I do not have anything other than that one tightly controlled scientific study to back up my assertions that Nitrox does not reduce post dive fatigue, and those such as Thal who say that Nitrox does in fact reduce post dive fatigue have nothing whatsover other than their own personal observations based on the subjective reports of fellow divers who knew they were diving Nitrox.

 

[Herk_Man]

Here's a thought. How about we just look at the difference between more oxygen vs. more nitrogen in your pink little bod. More oxygen: Generally a good thing, especially if I have had some sort of trauma or ailment. More nitrogen: Gets in my tissues when I'm under pressure and has to be off-gassed through that tissue in order to keep me from expiring. And sometimes it can cause great pain in my body if even a minor amount gets trapped.

So somehow my body has to deal with this gas being where it shouldn't be, and I get less of the good stuff (O2) when I dive with air. But when I dive Nitrox, both of these negatives go away. I think it stands to reason that Nitrox just intuitively will leave a person less fatigued.

But it also stands to reason that peoples' perception of this fatigue will differ and for some, won't even be perceptible. Leaving them believing that Nitrox is a waste of money.

Just sayin'

 

[Herk_Man]

Herkie, not really, he is (self admitted) the "wise guy" that ran into the gaping jaws but was consumed, unlike the "wise man," who ran into the gaping jaws, learned from the experience and survived.

Nope.

And here's the real deal. There is no scientific method that supports your ideas. And an abundance, nay, a plethora, that support Steve's.

And despite what I said a few posts back about making assumptions based on what we know about O2 and N, the scientific method has merit and exists for a reason. You can't discount it, or the placebo effect. Philosophy has no place here, dude. It denies the meaning of words, which is the foundation of a forum. Go find a media that deals only in abstract thought and spread your silliness there.

(Just having fun, no bunched panties please.) :mooner: