Those health forms -- Truth or Consequences?

[lulubelle]

If you assert that you have the right to lie on the medical questionaire, doesn't it logically follow that the dive op has the right to be dishonest with you?

Perhaps it would be okay with you if they kind of fudge their compressor maintenance records, or their DM's actual dive qualifications, or the safety of their boat, so as not to "make everyone's life difficult by disclosing it"?

Sorry for the delay, on the road working.

I think you too are seeing this as an either/or, black/white decision, and it simply isn't. When I sign the medical form, I commit to being medically cleared to dive as assessed by my physician and to disclose medical information that is relevant for my non medical dive op to know.

It is silly to compare the omission of medical information which a physician has deemed irrelevant to diving safety to the proper maintenance of the dive boat, proper training of the dive ops staff, or proper compressor procedures, all of which are obviously required for safe diving. Kind of like comparing apples to antelopes.

If dive shops were covered entities under HIPAA, I might feel differently. But anyone who doesn't believe they should closely guard their medical information needs to wake up and understand the implications of not doing so.

Kingpatzer answered in exactly the way I would have, so I won't repeat the same statement here.

 

[lulubelle]

Can you tell me which question demands this disclosure? Please quote the exact words.

Yep, this is the one which would get the poor kid with acne taking accutane or some other prescription drug booted back to the dive doc.

_____ Are you presently taking prescription medications? (with the exception of
birth control or anti-malarial)

From the PADI medical form, but it is on all of them.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

That simply is not true. There is a duty to disclose relevant information. The dive operator can ask for my social security and savings account numbers, but there is no duty to disclose such information, it is personal data not necessary to the contract.

If I have a recent dive physical and have been cleared to dive by my physician, then that clearance is relevant, but the specifics about my health history are not. That they are not asking a relevant question, but are asking irrelevant ones is not my problem, but I am under no duty to provide that information.

If they would ask "Have you had a dive physical in the last <insert time frame> and have you been cleared to dive by your dive physician?" And I answer "Yes," when the answer is really "No." Then I have failed a duty.

But when they ask for a list of health questions when they have no capacity to evaluate the impact on those answers on my fitness to dive, have no medical relationship with me, are not guaranteeing the security and privacy of my private medical information, and are providing me with no guarantee that they will allow me to dive if I am honest and provide proof of clearance from my dive physician, then they are not only asking information that is not relevant to the contract, but they are presenting an inequity within the contract.

The nature of why I can not dive is not relevant to them. And if I have been cleared to dive, by a person with the knowledge and expertise to make such a decision, then they have no basis to know anything more than that fact. They do not have the expertise to make use of specific medical information, and that information is immaterial to the service for which I am contracting.

Kingpatzer articulated my sentiments exactly. As a fit, responsible diver who would commit to obtaining periodic clearance from a physician if it were necessary, my main concern is that the typical dive op collecting such information on dive customers has very few safeguards in place to maintain the security and privacy of my medical information. Rather than lie, I would opt to inform the dive op of how I feel about their data-gathering practice...and threaten to take my business elsewhere should they not allow me to dive without disclosing my medical info to them (beyond simply whether I am fit/unfit to dive as judged by a physician). The loss of potential business and/or the risk of a lawsuit are the only two ways I see this practice of pre-dive data-gathering being revised.

The example that RJP brings up about making important medical information available to rescuers (EMTs, paramedics, lifeguards, doctors) in the event that I'm hurt in a dive-related setting can be done by simply wearing a med-alert bracelet. EMS is trained to check for such things when assessing the patient. I see this as a good compromise between allowing access to important medical info when needed and keeping it private otherwise. If this is done, I'd recommend that the bracelet be made of some kind of corrosion-resistant metal.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yep, this is the one which would get the poor kid with acne taking accutane or some other prescription drug booted back to the dive doc.

_____ Are you presently taking prescription medications? (with the exception of
birth control or anti-malarial)

From the PADI medical form, but it is on all of them.

Where does it say that the kind of prescription medication must be identified?

EDIT: Just as a reminder, this is what you said originally:

Originally Posted by lulubelle View Post
For instance, should a young person who is taking acne medication disclose this on a dive ops' medical form? .

The form does not require that disclosure.

 

[lulubelle]

Where does it say that the kind of prescription medication must be identified?

EDIT: Just as a reminder, this is what you said originally:



The form does not require that disclosure.

It says that you must disclose whether or not you take any prescription medications. I count a prescription acne medication as part of "any prescription medication. " That answer will then require a medical clearance.

 

[lulubelle]

PADI The information I have provided about my medical history is accurate to the best of my knowledge.I agree to accept responsibility for omissions regarding my failure to disclose any existing or past health condition.

-----------

This is the statement above the signature line on the PADI dive physical. The first sentence conflicts with the second if one has a tendency to look at it in a literal manner. Looks like this debate is much ado about nothing. I am happy to accept responsibility for my irrelevant health issues which are not disclosed. Should I ever have any which are relevant, they will be on there, and I'll accept responsibility for those too. I'm a grown up.

I'm out!

 

[Mike Boswell]

That simply is not true. There is a duty to disclose relevant information. The dive operator can ask for my social security and savings account numbers, but there is no duty to disclose such information, it is personal data not necessary to the contract.

If I have a recent dive physical and have been cleared to dive by my physician, then that clearance is relevant, but the specifics about my health history are not. That they are not asking a relevant question, but are asking irrelevant ones is not my problem, but I am under no duty to provide that information.

If they would ask "Have you had a dive physical in the last <insert time frame> and have you been cleared to dive by your dive physician?" And I answer "Yes," when the answer is really "No." Then I have failed a duty.

But when they ask for a list of health questions when they have no capacity to evaluate the impact on those answers on my fitness to dive, have no medical relationship with me, are not guaranteeing the security and privacy of my private medical information, and are providing me with no guarantee that they will allow me to dive if I am honest and provide proof of clearance from my dive physician, then they are not only asking information that is not relevant to the contract, but they are presenting an inequity within the contract.

The nature of why I can not dive is not relevant to them. And if I have been cleared to dive, by a person with the knowledge and expertise to make such a decision, then they have no basis to know anything more than that fact. They do not have the expertise to make use of specific medical information, and that information is immaterial to the service for which I am contracting.

We are not talking about refusing to answer questions based upon some legal, practical, or ethical principle. Obviously you are free to decline to answer any questions.

We are talking about knowingly lying on a form, and signing your name affirming that you have told the truth.

Different thing.

 

[Mike Boswell]

I agree. If you don't want to answer the questions honestly, then say so.

 

[TMHeimer]

I agree with you Mike, but that's difficult to do if there is one LDS within 100 miles of you.

 

[sydney-diver]

Personally, I have seen questions about mental or psychological illnesses, that I think are intrusive. And difficult to answer as it doesn't properly define what it means by this. Anything on the DSM-IV?? I would argue with some of those as being categorised as 'illnesses'.

Also while it doesn't apply to me the question about past alcohol or drug abuse is also something that I would consider very intrusive and irrelevant. Current alcohol and drug abuse, sure, but in the past??

I agree, the PADI form specifically askes "Recreational drug use or treatment for, or alcoholism". That's certainly intrusive (and no it doesn't apply to me either), I'm happy to show any dive operator a medical declaration from my doctor stating I'm fit to dive but don't see what I should provide any other information whatsover.