BP/W: I officially don't get it

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Reminds me of a DIR diver who came to dive at my place a few years ago. He wanted to rent a backplate - he'd brought the harness and a pocket handkerchief of a wing with him. I offered him a choice of 9 - SS, aluminum and resin, each from three manufacturers. He asked if I had a Halcyon one. When I said I didn't he went elsewhere. Since I ran the only operation anywhere in the country that rented ANY tech gear I can't imagine what he did - probably sat on the beach and drank beer for the entire week!

When I go diving with a wing I want adequate buoyancy and redundancy. In coolish water too warm for a drysuit the redundancy is critical. Most of my deep dives have been with a DR Superwing, and on one occasion it saved my life. I was diving with some other divers who were on mix and going to 130mtr. As is usual for deep diving we went down fast. I was on air and stopping at about 60mtr. Except that when I started putting on the brakes at 40mtr I didn't stop. I had one bladder fully inflated and the other one half inflated before I finally stopped, just short of 80mtr. I then had to get rid of 2/3 of that air to stop myself going into orbit, but if I hadn't had that buoyancy available I wouldn't have stopped until it was too late. A bit later a girl did much the same thing but didn't have a Superwing. She died and I had to recover her body, from 115mtr. I have another one to recover shortly, another person who didn't think it all through.

I've been to the Halcyon shop and I've dealt with them over the phone. I had one rather surreal conversation with them. I wanted a DSMB like the English AP Valves one I used, all red, with a loop at the top to fasten a slate, a one-way inflation valve, masses of buoyancy so it could be used as an ascent platform, and designed for inflation with a second stage. "We don't teach that method of inflation" "No, but do you sell them". "We don't teach that". Repeated several times. I gave up. The reason I'd called them was that it appeared from their website that they DID make such a DSMB, and I subsequently discovered that that was in fact the case. But the person they assigned to the phones didn't seem to know what they made, and they lost a sale. Not for one - I was buying ten, but I never got as far as telling her that. THAT's why I don't buy Halcyon.
 
Like I said before I don't agree, that's fine though. You dive the way you feel comfortable and I will do the same. Your story doesn't make sense though, either you have adequate lift or you don't. Using a dual bladder wing is a whole different topic. I don't own anything by Halcyon either, good product but too expensive for my taste.
 
without sounding like a complete idiot(don't respond to that please) why would someone not buy a Halcyon BP/W? I haven't heard anything bad about them other than cost. I looked into a BP/W here in Canada and an Oxycheck was $895 and a Halcyon was $910, both complete identical setups, seemed to me they were both expensive?

Those prices are w/o taxes aren't they ?
For this reason I ordered DSS setup for ~470US.
 
When I go diving with a wing I want adequate buoyancy and redundancy. In coolish water too warm for a drysuit the redundancy is critical. Most of my deep dives have been with a DR Superwing, and on one occasion it saved my life. I was diving with some other divers who were on mix and going to 130mtr. As is usual for deep diving we went down fast. I was on air and stopping at about 60mtr. Except that when I started putting on the brakes at 40mtr I didn't stop. I had one bladder fully inflated and the other one half inflated before I finally stopped, just short of 80mtr. I then had to get rid of 2/3 of that air to stop myself going into orbit, but if I hadn't had that buoyancy available I wouldn't have stopped until it was too late. A bit later a girl did much the same thing but didn't have a Superwing. She died and I had to recover her body, from 115mtr. I have another one to recover shortly, another person who didn't think it all through.
Is that a common practice ? looks like very dangerous thing
 
without sounding like a complete idiot(don't respond to that please) why would someone not buy a Halcyon BP/W? I haven't heard anything bad about them other than cost. I looked into a BP/W here in Canada and an Oxycheck was $895 and a Halcyon was $910, both complete identical setups, seemed to me they were both expensive?

Price is the only issue usually mentioned with Halcyon gear. I have a friend that bought 2 oxycheq set ups, that's 1 SS plate, 1 AL plate, two harness kits, and two mach V 30 lbs wings, and cambands for about $750 total. $895 is very high for one oxycheq set up. $900 for a halcyon is a little high but not unheard of.
 
When I go diving with a wing I want adequate buoyancy and redundancy. In coolish water too warm for a drysuit the redundancy is critical. Most of my deep dives have been with a DR Superwing, and on one occasion it saved my life. I was diving with some other divers who were on mix and going to 130mtr. As is usual for deep diving we went down fast. I was on air and stopping at about 60mtr. Except that when I started putting on the brakes at 40mtr I didn't stop. I had one bladder fully inflated and the other one half inflated before I finally stopped, just short of 80mtr. I then had to get rid of 2/3 of that air to stop myself going into orbit, but if I hadn't had that buoyancy available I wouldn't have stopped until it was too late. A bit later a girl did much the same thing but didn't have a Superwing. She died and I had to recover her body, from 115mtr. I have another one to recover shortly, another person who didn't think it all through.

No offense, but if you're diving to 130 meters (over 400ft) on air rather than trimix, (or heliox, I suppose) I don't think the wing is the main issue. I'm sure you're deservedly proud of your diving accomplishments and experience, but it's my understanding that diver behavior and judgment rather than specific gear is responsible for "saving your life."

Although this is an interesting story, what in the world does it have to do with the use of a backplate vs standard BC or recreational diving?
 
When I go diving with a wing I want adequate buoyancy and redundancy. In coolish water too warm for a drysuit the redundancy is critical. Most of my deep dives have been with a DR Superwing, and on one occasion it saved my life. I was diving with some other divers who were on mix and going to 130mtr. As is usual for deep diving we went down fast. I was on air and stopping at about 60mtr. Except that when I started putting on the brakes at 40mtr I didn't stop. I had one bladder fully inflated and the other one half inflated before I finally stopped, just short of 80mtr.

Redundant bladder wings have a single shell and two inner bladders.

EACH OF THESE INNER BLADDERS is large enough to completely fill the outer shell.

It is not possible to fully inflate one bladder AND half inflate the second.

Tobin
 
No offense, but if you're diving to 130 meters (over 400ft) on air rather than trimix, (or heliox, I suppose) I don't think the wing is the main issue
I didn't say that.

I'm not "proud" of what I've done in diving, but what I've done I've survived, and by-and-large enjoyed. I'm trying to make the point that there's a lot more to this than (maybe suspect) theory. A lot of people have died needlessly. Interestingly, most deaths in the Dahab Blue Hole have been recreational diving instructors, largely because they thought they knew it all and too late discovered they didn't.

I mentioned the excess buoyancy question to a friend who doesn't read these pages (too busy doing it than talking & reading about it). He totally agreed with me. Now, he only has about 15000 dives and has only been teaching for around 40 years, so I'm sure he still has a lot to learn .....

Enough. Listen or don't - it's entirely up to you. I don't claim to be right on everything, but I do know I'm right on some things that many other people very expensively get wrong. I just hope I don't read about you, or worse still have to recover you.
 
I didn't say that.

I'm not "proud" of what I've done in diving, but what I've done I've survived, and by-and-large enjoyed. I'm trying to make the point that there's a lot more to this than (maybe suspect) theory. A lot of people have died needlessly. Interestingly, most deaths in the Dahab Blue Hole have been recreational diving instructors, largely because they thought they knew it all and too late discovered they didn't.

I mentioned the excess buoyancy question to a friend who doesn't read these pages (too busy doing it than talking & reading about it). He totally agreed with me. Now, he only has about 15000 dives and has only been teaching for around 40 years, so I'm sure he still has a lot to learn .....

Enough. Listen or don't - it's entirely up to you. I don't claim to be right on everything, but I do know I'm right on some things that many other people very expensively get wrong. I just hope I don't read about you, or worse still have to recover you.

I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong but it's not the most streamlined, or proficient way to dive as I've explained. If you're going to preach to people on here as an instructor figure you should be able to explain yourself. Remember you're the one that said I was diving unsafely... I posted a detailed explanation about wing size and how much lift you really need and why I dive the way I do, it's really not that complicated. (Which a lot of people believe to be the safest way, myself included) All you've done is talk about "deaths from Dahab" or "your friend with 1,000,000 dives said...". How about explaining yourself? Let's hear your theory as you've just posted. If I'm diving so unsafely let's hear why and also why the way you dive is safer? I'm not attacking you personally, or really care how you choose to dive but if you're giving advice to new divers you should be able to explain a little bit more than talk about how many dives you've done and in what conditions. It's already pretty apparent you're exaggerating your story about your double bladder wing and how hard it was for you to stop descending...
 
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