Seeking Opinions on Troubling Incident

[ScubaSteve]

It was an uncertified diver.

I am sure the offending Instructor had no way of knowing this for certain.

The psycological effects of 'battery' underwater may be completely different to those experienced on land.

This I am sure is very true it would have less effect on an experienced diver versus a novice (or in certification) diver.

It would be interesting to know if any cases exist that differentiate severity of crime based on the location - especially in regard to underwater on scuba.

There is a thread on SB somewhere about a lawsuit I think in Roatanabout an attempted murder charge for fighting under water. It is nothing more than a bunch of hype but I was not there so it is simply my opinion. I will find the thread.

 

[letterboy]

I am sure the offending Instructor had no way of knowing this for certain.


~~SNIP~~


There is a thread on SB somewhere about a lawsuit I think in Roatanabout an attempted murder charge for fighting under water. It is nothing more than a bunch of hype but I was not there so it is simply my opinion. I will find the thread.

I think we should make ALL OW students either wear a sign that says I AM NEW LEAVE ME ALONE, or all wear pink wetsuits, after all pink is the new black.

I remember that thread, some DM's or some other BS wasn't it

 

[DevonDiver]

I am sure the offending Instructor had no way of knowing this for certain.

So..on land I shove someone...they are wearing a pacemaker and the stress causes them to die.

Is this still battery?

Does ignorance of the victim's situation provide a legal get out?

This I am sure is very true it would have less effect on an experienced diver versus a novice (or in certification) diver.

I am not a lawyer - but I seem to remember that some instances (in British Law) refer to how the incident made the victim percieve the risk/danger/threat..

This is why, in the UK (with our stringent gun laws), even the use of replica firearms in crimes would still mean the perpatrator would be tried on firearms offenses. Because a replica firearm still causes victims to fear for their lives.

If that were true....the an inexperienced diver might fear for their life - even due to a relatively 'harmless' aggressive, physical action underwater.

Regarding civil, rather than criminal, actions...then I am sure a good lawyer would certainly be able to make something out of the underwater location of the incident and the victim's psychological reaction to that.

 

[MarKon]

my .02:
As a new diver, I think I may have flipped out and went for the instructor who pushed me. Maybe. My immediate feeling went with DumpsterDiver and avon, I may have want to beat the dude. But that just creates a scenario where I go to jail (especially if I beat him well), so "beat the dude" formulas no longer work. Not to mention the beating would probably entail retribution at some point. But the instructor should recieve some sort of punishment, and I don't believe he should be allowed to instruct any further. that push could have had serious consequences, and what the hell? You don't go around pushing people as adults. ridiculous.

 

[ScubaSteve]

So..on land I shove someone...they are wearing a pacemaker and the stress causes them to die.

Is this still battery?

Sure. Why not? But should the penalty be impacted by the fact that the person had a pacemaker? No it should only matter that the victim died.

Does ignorance of the victim's situation provide a legal get out?

NO but if their circumstances are not obvious then it should not be allowed to worsen the outcome (meaning what charges and/or penalties could be brought upon the person) either IMO


I am not a lawyer - but I seem to remember that some instances (in British Law) refer to how the incident made the victim percieve the risk/danger/threat..

Makes sense but that does not mean that the penalties would be worse because the person was an uncertified diver.

<snip>

If that were true....the an inexperienced diver might fear for their life - even due to a relatively 'harmless' aggressive, physical action underwater.

Yes it is possible but should the instructor be tried for MURDER just because the new diver felt their life was in danger?

Points above.

I think we should make ALL OW students either wear a sign that says I AM NEW LEAVE ME ALONE, or all wear pink wetsuits, after all pink is the new black.

I remember that thread, some DM's or some other BS wasn't it

Or "Diver Trainee - Hi I'm new and I'm trying" (while wearing pink) :joke:

 

[Hoomi]

As a recently certified diver, I would have been completely perplexed by the other instructor's actions, and quite likely completely pissed off at him.

If the other instructor felt that I was somehow crowding his student, he could have - and should have - made reasonable attempts to communicate that first and foremost. I would expect an instructor to carry a slate, and he could have written a quick note explaining they needed more room (if that was the case).

If the other instructor could not convey what he needed to the student, he should have made attempts to convey it to the student's instructor, and let that instructor get his student to move out of the way.

Pushing a student off a platform is irresponsible at best. It's a good bet I would have been in the quarry's dive shop, asking to speak with the manager or owner about the actions of his instructor. This instructor represented his LDS poorly, and as litigious as our culture has become, he could have opened himself and the shop to a lawsuit. Even if the suit was seen as frivolous, it presents an expense in time and resources to deal with.

He also had no idea what kind of person he pushed. I've known a number of people that would have waited topside for that instructor after the dive, and confronted him - possibly violently - for his actions. Such an overreaction isn't right, either, but it's a reality we read in the news frequently over such trivial things as parking spaces, the latest hot toy, etc.

If you have any kind of rapport with the other shop owner, my suggestion would be to call him and express your concerns about what happened, from a position of concern over how it can affect his business as well. If the offending instructor has some explanation, it might help clear things up (maybe he was feeling your student was crowding his, and his attempts to convey that were being ignored, and he felt he had to do something). Starting out from an objective position, seeking to cooperatively investigate an incident, is always a good idea. It's easier and more effective to become a hardnose later if needed, than it is to start out as a hardnose if it's not needed.

 

[letterboy]

Points above.




Or "Diver Trainee - Hi I'm new and I'm trying" (while wearing pink) :joke:

either that or people could just look for the diver swimming around swamping viz up, with an experienced diver

OR They could make the Dive Cons and DM's swim around dragging a banner, like the airplanes at the ocean saying look out new divers following, don't hurt them, they are sensitive

 

[Hoomi]

Or, how about this even MORE radical and unreasonable idea?

What if people - experienced and noobs alike - extended common courtesy to each other while diving?

Yeah, I know. What a SILLY idea...

 

[letterboy]

Or, how about this even MORE radical and unreasonable idea?

What if people - experienced and noobs alike - extended common courtesy to each other while diving?

Yeah, I know. What a SILLY idea...

WOW, you are such an out of the box thinker, thats just crazy talk!

 

[CamG]

Greetings fellow SB'ers this thread has been the full spectrum of emotion and opinion.
My instructor has dealt with the very same issues many times before while training in a busy quarry. Just in the last year working as a DMC I have been privy to many group crashes, lost buddies, and struggling new divers. I have never seen what I would call a shove under water that displaced a diver from a platform. I have witnessed taps, waves, fin tugs, appropriate sign language and or slate written information. I thought that professionalism covered this type of situation and a common courtesy was employed above and below the water. I understand the emotional responses and it is sometimes best to let ones better sense get a hold of you before you act on a situation.
When my wife was nearly struck by a DPV on a night dive, I was only a few feet away. My instructor quickly got between the scootering diver and myself and motioned them to move on. Good judgement and helped me to make the right decision as well.
I have had many opportunities to interact with other divers not a part of our training and do so in a appropriate respectful manor. Several have came to speak with us at the surface and been very polite. I guess I wish it was always like that but we do not live in a perfect world. Diving does not need black eyes from non-professional behavior of any kind from any quarry, LDS or instructor. I can take it further and say divers in general but that is asking more than reality will allow. Till then I will determine to perform like the example that has been set for me and handle myself with respect and professionalism. I hope that the student involved understands and continues to train. Diving is far to awesome to let one negative incident as the afore mentioned to cease training. His decision to make but I am hopeful.
CamG Keep diving....keep training....keep learning!