Is safe second really needed?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Now you're just being obtuse.

Yes, you are entirely correct. Boyles law, Charles law, the general gas law, thermodynamics amd hydrodynamic just don't apply to recreational diving, therefore the "ground rules" are entirely different.

Do you honestly think that learning the physics of diving is all there is to it?

The U.S. Navy still uses doubles without BC and there is no safe-second/octo/redundant 2nd stage on the rig they dive. Most Navy trained divers dive recreationally and their training exceeds the standards of any recreational training agency.

So, if a octo is sooooooo important, why does the Navy dive with out them?

And do you believe that all divers should dive doubles with no BC or safe-second?

Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

Ask yourself how much it costs ... in terms of money, resources and time ... to train a Navy diver?

What is the purpose (mission) of that training?

What is the focus?

What is the average age and physical condition of the typical Navy dive student?

How much of that training is relevent to civilian vacation diving?

Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

What your suggesting is akin to saying that everyone who wants to learn how to fly an airplane needs to take F16 training ... after all, aerodynamics is aerodynamics ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's not a requirement, and I do not wish we had scuba police... but I do think it's a better approach to be configured similarly to what Joe Diver would expect, if you'll be diving around him.

I'll have to disagree ... I have no desire to wear a jacket BC and standard short-hose reg when I go on tropical trips. Nor do I care to add a snorkel to my configuration ... unless I'm planning to go snorkeling during the trip.

I DO, however, make an effort to make sure those I'm diving with are aware of how to share air with me, should the need arise.

And since most tropicals DM's have never seen a backplate/long hose before, I DO ask them to please not mess with my gear while it's on the boat.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[muddiver]

Having an extra second stage clipped to your right hand side harness strap fulfills the basic premis of current SCUBA training for a "safe second".

The fact that it is routed from a pony bottle, or a 40 cu back-up, or a 72 cu bail-out or off your primary is inmaterial. Most any recreationally trained SCUBA diver would go to that extra regulator if they were looking for air (with the exception of the totally panic stricken OOA diver sinero that someone will bring up).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Having an extra second stage clipped to your right hand side harness strap fulfills the basic premis of current SCUBA training for a "safe second".

Not necessarily ... currently acceptable training also includes inline safe-seconds (AirII or SS1, for example), as well as bungeed necklaces. Both are commonly taught and used in my area.

The "golden triangle" method is unique to one specific training agency ... and taught by other agencies as one acceptable manner of delivering air to an OOA diver.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Matt S.]

I'll have to disagree ... I have no desire to wear a jacket BC and standard short-hose reg when I go on tropical trips.

Hell, neither do I! "Similar" can mean a range of things. A reg that you can donate, whether it is your primary or a traditional octo, and ditchable weight that is easy for anyone to understand are all I am really thinking of.

 

[LiteHedded]

Having an extra second stage clipped to your right hand side harness strap fulfills the basic premis of current SCUBA training for a "safe second".

The fact that it is routed from a pony bottle, or a 40 cu back-up, or a 72 cu bail-out or off your primary is inmaterial. Most any recreationally trained SCUBA diver would go to that extra regulator if they were looking for air (with the exception of the totally panic stricken OOA diver sinero that someone will bring up).

it happens.
I've seen it happen

 

[muddiver]

Now you're just being obtuse.



Do you honestly think that learning the physics of diving is all there is to it?



And do you believe that all divers should dive doubles with no BC or safe-second?

Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

Ask yourself how much it costs ... in terms of money, resources and time ... to train a Navy diver?

What is the purpose (mission) of that training?

What is the focus?

What is the average age and physical condition of the typical Navy dive student?

How much of that training is relevent to civilian vacation diving?

Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

What your suggesting is akin to saying that everyone who wants to learn how to fly an airplane needs to take F16 training ... after all, aerodynamics is aerodynamics ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The SCUBA portion of Navy Diver/Army Combat Swimmer/Marine Corps Force Recon training is nothing more than watermanship (loard help us if we have to train a recreational diver that), use of SCUBA equipment and confidence is the use of SCUBA equipment underwater. All of the other fun skills that military instructors throw in (which just happend to be in the YMCA and NAUI original training manuals and program) are to build or maintain endurance, phyisical fitness and help teach underwater survival. Therfore, I still agree with you that the "ground rules" are totally different and the basics of SCUBA diver training in the military has no bearing on the training process of recreational SCUBA.

As for the mission, focus and F16 vs. piper cub training you are referring to: The mission traning portions of the different military diving programs come after the SCUBA diver training. So I will clarify that I was referring to the Basic Diver training which is approximately 12 days of SCUBA training before the real militay-killers school starts.

 

[muddiver]

it happens.
I've seen it happen

I never said it didn't.

That is just the extream case granade that some throw when they want to divert the conversation.

 

[muddiver]

Not necessarily ... currently acceptable training also includes inline safe-seconds (AirII or SS1, for example), as well as bungeed necklaces. Both are commonly taught and used in my area.

The "golden triangle" method is unique to one specific training agency ... and taught by other agencies as one acceptable manner of delivering air to an OOA diver.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sorry, I was refering to the previous post by Matt S. who is pushing the training standard by that "one" spacific training agency.

"currently acceptable training" under who's agency's rules? The rules that I must abide by are not necessarily interchangable with the rules you must abide by.

I am sorry, but the local accaptable techniques in the Pacif North West do not translate well throughout the rest of the diving community. As I can see on your profile you are a DIR type diver. I've never seen anyone like that in Hawaii and very few in So. California.

I'm not knocking how you dive or what you teach, because I cherry pick myself from all the different techniques and equipment.

 

[Matt S.]

I am not pushing PADI and I never mentioned the "golden triangle." I will try to restate my position as simply as possible.

If you are diving with just your buddies, do whatever you want.

If you are diving around a bunch of strangers of unknown training and skill levels, you are being a better emergency buddy to them if you have a reg to donate, and if that reg is in one of the places they have likely been trained to look for it. (eg, snatch it from the PADI triangle, or you donate your primary and use a necklaced or inflator-integrated backup.)

You aren't obligated to think about how to be a better buddy to a pack of strangers, but it's the decent thing to do.