Carrying Three Regulators

[Dtaine]

Every additional piece of equipment that you hang on yourself complicates your rig. Any piece of equipment that is not needed is no more than a liability. There is no foreseable situation in which you would need to be breathing off of both second stage regulators from the same first stage if you are carrying a pony.

With my configuration I am able to donate my primary to my buddy, let him float 5 to 6 feet away from me while I breathe off my alternate (on a bungee around my neck), and shoot my SMB with the second stage from my 40cf tank. If I only had two second stages this would complicate sharing air and deploying the SMB.

You may think that you can rationally think through a set of options and pick the best action in an emergency but in a real situation that rarely happens. It is very important to simplify and limit the number of choices one has to optimize the probability that the correct one is chosen in a stressful situation.

But if one can maximize the number of safe and effective options for handling a situation then I would argue they are in fact safer. Eliminating the third second stage reduces the options a buddy team has in an air-sharing situation.

I will relate a couple of incidents I was present for. I was not underwater with these divers but I debriefed them after the fact.

In one instance a diver was getting ready to make a 130 foot dive. He had a 95CF main tank and a 30CF pony mounted to the side of his main tank. He had a regulator with two second stages and a gauge console on each tank. I suggested to him that he might want to remove the extra second stages and the console on the pony before going in. He declined, saying that he knew where everything was and had a system to determine which regulator was which. He was a very experienced diver, with a couple of hundred dives in his log.

He jumped into the water and was back up five minutes later. When we pieced the story together this is what we determined had happened:

He went in the water breathing off of his pony bottle, thinking it was his primary. He ran out of gas shortly after reaching the bottom and switched to his pony bottle regulator. Of course, he had already depleted his pony bottle so when he tried to take a breath he got nothing. Now he was on the verge of panic. He grabbbed the regulator from his buddy's mouth. His buddy, an excellent diver, easily dealt with the problem and switched to his own back-up. The two divers then took a couple of minutes to calm down and then made an air-sharing ascent. Back on the boat, we took the valve off of the pony bottle and puured about a litre of water out of it.

It's fortunate this situation ended well for the divers, others have been killed by such mistakes. Just to clarify, you're saying he had 4 second stages and 2 consoles? That, I would agree, is serious overkill.

Another time I witnessed a diver go on a 130 foot dive with a similar set-up except that he had only one second stage on his pony. This time the diver went into the water breathing off of the proper regulator but got into trouble when he had an equipment problem on the bottom. He developed a free-flow with his primary regulator. He breathed it down a bit and then switched to what he thought was his pony. Of course, he made the wrong choice and put his octo in his mouth by mistake. He was already stressed out and when, just a few seconds later, he ran out of gas he panicked. He attempted to get air from his buddy but the exchange went bad because of his agitated state. His buddy was unable to control the situation and the diver ended up making a rapid ascent. He was not injured but could very well have been.

Those are just two examples. I have seen others.

It appears the problem here was that the diver panicked. Fortunately he didn't hurt himself or his buddy. Was the pony second stage clipped to his bc or was it secured to the pony tank?

With only exception (a knife or cutting tool) I have never witnessed an accident or near accident caused by a diver not having enough gear. I have seen many caused by divers haivg too much gear or inappropriate gear.

I certainly am not one to advocate having divers look like Christmas trees, but having a backup second stage on the main tank is hardly too much gear.

Interesting discussion, I appreciate the scenarios and past experiences. To address a question, I carry a Pony because I want an alternate air source, not just a means to reconnect to my only source. If I have a major gear malfunction, cut hose, failed first-stage, free-flow, I want a source unaffected by the original problem.

Frankly I don't understand why a pony isn't required (assuming of course you not diving doubles, etc)? I know that failures are fairly uncommon so I see the reasoning that the risk is so low that the requirement isn't needed. I just figure if I get into major trouble I want my rescue to be on me, not on somebody who may or may not be around. I can't imagine a situation where both first stage, or both hoses, or both tanks, or both second stages would fail at the same time?

Why is an SPG not needed on your alternate air source? I have a fair idea of my sac rate (it changes very easily). I have also removed my mask in 30 feet of water and had my breath actually yanked from my lungs (scared the crap out of me). The cold (48deg) hit my face and my air was gone, freaky. I imagine under a real emergency a similar reaction might happen and I would think you would need to know how fast your burning up your "gas"?

I have an SPG on my 40cf tank, although it's on a 6 inch hose and secured next to the first stage. With a back mounted pony there's always the question of where you plan to put your SPG and the best place would depend on the bc you're using. If your pony truly is only for emergencies then you really don't need an SPG, so long as your making sure it's topped off before each dive. The thing is, if your breathing rate is accelerated already because you went OOA on the main tank, and you start watching your SPG then you might lose focus on other things such as your buoyancy or navigation back to the boat or shore. The most important thing is to handle any situation underwater calmly, and if your breathing rate shoots through the roof for any reason then stop briefly to get it back under control.

Or is it just that your ascending anyway so what difference does it make? If your low and breathing gets hard, your just gonna kick to the surface anyway, its not like the SPG is going to add air to the tank. The thought of going OOA a second time on a dive without seeing it coming, sort freaks me out. I would probably prefer to see it coming the second time.

The trick is to make sure you don't go OOA in the first place. Having a minimum gas reserve and a turn pressure for the dive is easy to do, and prevents a lot of problems from occurring.

Slinging a pony bottle and the size. I chose a 19cu bottle because from the rec dive limit at more than double my sac rate I can safely surface with a safety stop. Why would I want to carry a 30 (for my needs)? Why would you want to sling a bottle, so you can hand-off YOUR alternate air source? Why would a rec diver who dives reefs mostly between 50 and 75 feet of depth want to carry a bottle in front of him instead of out of the way on your back with the other tank?

Well, depending on what type of bc you have slinging a bottle can be a royal PITA. In know that with my setup (bp/w) slinging a 40cf tank is no problem at all, and it's barely noticeable. For certain dives a 19 cf bottle may be enough of a reserve for you to get to the surface, but what about your buddy? Are you planning enough of a reserve into your main tank as well such that your buddy could breathe off it, and you off your pony, so that both of you can reach the surface safely? If you aren't then you ought to. One thing you have to remember is that having a pony bottle doesn't suddenly permit you to ignore basic gas management, or to do more aggressive dives that you wouldn't have done before. Plan each dive accordingly, be familiar with your setup and that of your buddy's, that way each dive can be not only safe, but fun and relaxing.

 

[gcbryan]

Interesting discussion, I appreciate the scenarios and past experiences. To address a question, I carry a Pony because I want an alternate air source, not just a means to reconnect to my only source. If I have a major gear malfunction, cut hose, failed first-stage, free-flow, I want a source unaffected by the original problem.

Frankly I don't understand why a pony isn't required (assuming of course you not diving doubles, etc)? I know that failures are fairly uncommon so I see the reasoning that the risk is so low that the requirement isn't needed. I just figure if I get into major trouble I want my rescue to be on me, not on somebody who may or may not be around. I can't imagine a situation where both first stage, or both hoses, or both tanks, or both second stages would fail at the same time?

Why is an SPG not needed on your alternate air source? I have a fair idea of my sac rate (it changes very easily). I have also removed my mask in 30 feet of water and had my breath actually yanked from my lungs (scared the crap out of me). The cold (48deg) hit my face and my air was gone, freaky. I imagine under a real emergency a similar reaction might happen and I would think you would need to know how fast your burning up your "gas"?

Or is it just that your ascending anyway so what difference does it make? If your low and breathing gets hard, your just gonna kick to the surface anyway, its not like the SPG is going to add air to the tank. The thought of going OOA a second time on a dive without seeing it coming, sort freaks me out. I would probably prefer to see it coming the second time.

Slinging a pony bottle and the size. I chose a 19cu bottle because from the rec dive limit at more than double my sac rate I can safely surface with a safety stop. Why would I want to carry a 30 (for my needs)? Why would you want to sling a bottle, so you can hand-off YOUR alternate air source? Why would a rec diver who dives reefs mostly between 50 and 75 feet of depth want to carry a bottle in front of him instead of out of the way on your back with the other tank?

In an unforeseen circumstance more air is always better! You also may find that you will have a reason to go deeper than 75 fsw after a few more dives and if you do decide to sling, a 30cu ft or 40 cu ft is probably easier to sling than a smaller tank like a 19 cu ft.

This is not to say that it's wrong to do what you are doing but you asked for reasons why one might do otherwise.

If you are on a dive boat switching out tanks it's easier if you aren't having to deal with the pony bottle each time. If it's slung you can see it. If something is leaking you can see it. If you forgot to turn it on you can easily turn it on. You may want to hand it off. If the buddy is someone you care about and they need air but are panicking a bit you may like the feeling of helping them without being connected to them. It's just an option. It's also easier to not take the pony bottle on a shallow dive if you decide not to at the last moment and you'll still have an octo on your main tank for your buddy or for yourself depending on your configuration.

Slinging is a more elegant solution in many ways. It's actually tucked under your arm and in against your body. I don't even notice that I'm slinging it while underwater.

I've done it both ways and both work. I used to have only 2 second stages and had a pony attached to the main tank. Now I have 3 second stages and sling the bottle with the spg and reg hoses folded and bungeed to the pony bottle.

Regarding a spg on the pony. I do think it's a good idea to have more than a button spg that you only check before the dive. What if your bottle is leaking? That's the main reason I have a spg on my main tank so why wouldn't I want one on my pony?

There are many ways to do things however and I think it is more important to think things through as you are doing regardless of the final solution.

 

[redacted]

I dive what many would consider a marginal pony - 13cf. But it gets me to the surface from 100ft with a 5 minute RS and gas to spare. I have an SPG on it so I can easily verify that it is full before I dive. I have an equalizer hose so I can top it off from my main tank before the dive any time I want. I sling it with the reg pressurized and the valve off. The SPG tells me if the pressure has fallen in the reg and I can cycle the valve any time. Knowing my gas status at the RS allows me to conduct and extend my RS knowing I am not going to be hurried by an OOA through that critical last 10 to 20 ft.

 

[captndale]

With my configuration I am able to donate my primary to my buddy, let him float 5 to 6 feet away from me while I breathe off my alternate (on a bungee around my neck), and shoot my SMB with the second stage from my 40cf tank. If I only had two second stages this would complicate sharing air and deploying the SMB.

So you are saying that you carry an extra second stage for inflating your SMB. In our area, using a second stage to fill a bag is nearly guaranteed to cause a freeze-up / freeflow. Down there in sunny Florida if you want to use a second stage to do it I would think it would not be a big deal to remove the one in your mouth for the few seconds it takes.

I have been teaching diving for 35 years and for the past 15 years I have operated a charter boat. After watching literally hundreds of diver screw-ups one starts to see patterns of behavior that tend to precipitate the problems. Over-reliance on equipment to solve perceived problems is top on the list.

But if one can maximize the number of safe and effective options for handling a situation then I would argue they are in fact safer. Eliminating the third second stage reduces the options a buddy team has in an air-sharing situation.

No, increasing the number of options one has to select from in an emergency does not make one safer. It just complicates the decision making process. Learning and practicing one correct response is more effective in the resolution of problems. This is why aircraft pilots have specific check lists that they follow in emergencies.

 

[redacted]

So you are saying that you carry an extra second stage for inflating your SMB. In our area, using a second stage to fill a bag is nearly guaranteed to cause a freeze-up / freeflow. Down there in sunny Florida if you want to use a second stage to do it I would think it would not be a big deal to remove the one in your mouth for the few seconds it takes.

I can see where you might think that but that is probably not a good idea. My procedure is to first empty my wing into the bag so I am still neutral. Then I switch to my bungeed octo and use my primary to slowly fill the bag enough so we just start to become positively buoyant but still able to control depth with breathing. So now the bag is standing up straight but usually still needs a good shoot to stand proud on the surface that is about 30 ft away. So I empty my lungs and start to sink as I give the bag a burst of gas and let it go when it starts dragging me up. Bag is on the way, lungs are empty, and it is time for a reliable breath. Doable with one reg, but why add the risk, small as it might be. And my pony is still untouched and ready for the emergency it was intended for. And, yes, I am a WWW.:coffee:

 

[atedeschi]

this is dumb, you people do to much to get things done.

If you are doing NDL type dives, you can carry a 19cu ft pony - 30cu ft (max but if you are a heavy breather then ok). You care the pony either hard mounted or sling like a deco bottle, its your call. You need a regulator on your pony, and can use a spg or button gauge. I recommend a button gauge because as long as it full thats all you need, you do not need to monitor its use, because the dives over. Put one regulator on your main tank, no octos. There is it plain and simple.

As far as liftbags, take out the bag, set it up take the reg out fill it, let the bag go to surface and put reg in mouth. Plain and simple.
This works in cold water as well, just do burst or don't push the purge all the way in.

No dumping gas filling gas, blah blah.

People over complicate diving.

 

[Dtaine]

So you are saying that you carry an extra second stage for inflating your SMB. In our area, using a second stage to fill a bag is nearly guaranteed to cause a freeze-up / freeflow. Down there in sunny Florida if you want to use a second stage to do it I would think it would not be a big deal to remove the one in your mouth for the few seconds it takes.

It's not a big deal, but it's also not the primary reason I carry that second stage. The primary reason I carry it is because it allows both myself and my buddy access to my backgas. With only one second stage on my main tank that simply wouldn't be possible.

I have been teaching diving for 35 years and for the past 15 years I have operated a charter boat. After watching literally hundreds of diver screw-ups one starts to see patterns of behavior that tend to precipitate the problems. Over-reliance on equipment to solve perceived problems is top on the list.

I respect your experience, but I respectfully disagree on this matter. All diving is reliant on equipment, meaning that each solution to a diving problem is reliant on some form of it.

No, increasing the number of options one has to select from in an emergency does not make one safer. It just complicates the decision making process. Learning and practicing one correct response is more effective in the resolution of problems. This is why aircraft pilots have specific check lists that they follow in emergencies.

Is it really that complicated having three second stages? NO, it's incredibly uncomplicated. The idea that having a third second stage puts too much task loading onto the average diver is to assume that the average diver is a complete moron.

You want a checklist, well, okay.

Buddy signals to share air. Check
I donate my primary. Check
I switch to my alternate. Check
Hand off pony bottle OR Switch to the pony myself OR stay as is Check
Ascend / turn the dive / get back to the boat, shore, etc Check

It's incredibly simple, and I make the decision as to what to do with the pony after both my buddy and I are breathing from a working air source.

 

[wedivebc]

With my configuration I am able to donate my primary to my buddy, let him float 5 to 6 feet away from me while I breathe off my alternate (on a bungee around my neck), and shoot my SMB with the second stage from my 40cf tank. If I only had two second stages this would complicate sharing air and deploying the SMB.

Did someone actually teach you that method or did you just figure it out?

Ease of deploying a lift bag is a really poor reason for carrying an extra second stage.
The second stage regulator is the number one source of gas loss due to freeflow. The odds of a reg freeflowing are way higher than any other failure that might cause OOA.
As far as the "more choices" argument Hick's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Smart divers these days are reducing or minimizing kit to include only the essentials. Many arguments seem to exist as to which pieces are essential but for my money reducing the number of items that produce the most frequent failure is a no brainer.

 

[Dtaine]

Did someone actually teach you that method or did you just figure it out?

Ease of deploying a lift bag is a really poor reason for carrying an extra second stage.
The second stage regulator is the number one source of gas loss due to freeflow. The odds of a reg freeflowing are way higher than any other failure that might cause OOA.
As far as the "more choices" argument Hick's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Smart divers these days are reducing or minimizing kit to include only the essentials. Many arguments seem to exist as to which pieces are essential but for my money reducing the number of items that produce the most frequent failure is a no brainer.

Take a look at the post right above yours for my primary reason as to keeping the second stage. I would argue that my kit is rather minimal. It's in keeping with the DIR equipment setup, my "pony" will be used as a stage/deco bottle well down the road, I'm using it as a pony to get used to handling it underwater.

 

[atedeschi]

when someone is OOA, its not calm enough to donate, check, doing something, check etc.
They will rip the reg from your mouth, you go to your backup, try to calm them and then surface.

Next time you are in water u can stand up in, have you buddy swim away from you, let them get 30' then exhale fully and take off after them, and see what happens. You are signalling you are going to grab a fin flip them and grab a reg from there mouth.

less is more.