Lionfish in Cozumel

[geokr]

I don't recall seeing any swimming very vigorously anywhere. They just kind of float along or are on very slow cruise mode most of the time. The only time I ever saw them move fast at all is when trying to escape so maybe your theory about them avoiding fast currents is correct. Salmon they're not! They don't chase their food much, either, they just hang around till something appetizing comes in front of them and then they grab it. For an animal that eats so much they don't seem to expend much energy.

 

[NudeDiver]

But it wasn't nature nor a product of natural activities that brought lionfish to this hemisphere.

So....it was due to some super magical mystery man in the sky? Or did some humans among us learn how to bypass the known laws of physics and chemistry?

Man put them here and that act completely circumvented natural processes.

Man is an animal. A part of nature. The activities of animals, including man, are also a part of nature.

There's every indication at this point that the adjustment period is going to be bad for both man and for the already established natural order. The lionfish, however, are lovin' it.

That may be. It certainly wouldn't be the first time man appears to have acted not in his own best interest. As for the reef and the lionfish - maybe a new world order for the reef is in the works.

 

[NudeDiver]

It is a nuisance; it has clogged waterways and it has driven other species to the brink of extinction.

So, it doesn't appear to be a nuisance for THAT species. In fact, the activities of man could be seen as a rather fortuitous event, enabling it to migrate to new areas, out compete other species, and increase the spread of its own genes - which is the fundamental activity of all living things.

I get the philosophical point you are trying to make. Man is, after all, just another species, and his effect on the world is, in some senses, a natural thing. In practicality, however, since we are the only species that both is sentient and travels huge distances with luggage, we should respect the "treaties" that other species have hammered out amongst themselves in particular locales and not disrupt them.

See, and that, I would argue, is not natural. Besides which - if humans had thought about that before decimating the local grouper population, maybe the lionfish wouldn't be such an issue.

For an animal that eats so much they don't seem to expend much energy.

Are you talking about lionfish, or humans?

 

[Christi]

So....it was due to some super magical mystery man in the sky? Or did some humans among us learn how to bypass the known laws of physics and chemistry?

If you'll ready everything posted here as well as links that have been provided..you'd know the answer to this question!

The primary cause for this species to end up in the Atlantic and Caribbean is/was from people buying "exotic" fish for their home aquariums and then dumping them into the ocean when they got too big for the aquariums and/or devoured all of the other fish in the tank. Lionfish multiply ferociously and it is not natural for them to be in this ocean...this is not their natural habitat...PERIOD!

 

[sharky60]

I guess I am missing what the problem is. Species migrate (one way or the other) and settle into other ecosystems all the time. Hell, just look at man! This species started off in Africa and is now found all over the planet! The "native" species need to evolve - adapt, relocate or otherwise. Its nature's way.

This is niether adaptation or evolution at work, the lionfish was introduced to the eastern Atlantic, probably somewhere between South Carolina and southern Florida, by aquarium owners that could no longer house or support thier fish, so, ignorantly, they just released them into the ocean, to "set them free", rather than doing the right thing and selling them to a dealer that could find a proper home for them.

the problem is, this is a very agressive breeding and feeding fish with NO PREDITORS, so it can just eat as much as it wants without having to worry about being eaten...thus the eco system is vastly upset because this fish will over take all others.

I don't know what is in the Pacific to balance it out, but they don't overrun reefs like they are in the Atlantic/Carib.

this has happened in lakes in the U.S., people released Pacu, a vegitarian cousin to the piranha that one can buy in any pet store at 2" long but it can live for easily 30 years and can grow to 60+ lbs. These animals originate in the Amazon river and when released into a lake will first eat all the plant material and then move on to fish just to survive and will wipeout an entire eco system. If there are any fish left because they didn't have any vegitation to eat.

The lionfish was first spotted in 1994 in the Bahamas, my wife actually saw one on our trip there in April of '94 and the DM and I tried to convince her she was wrong because that fish is from the Pacific, the DM wasn't even sure what one was...turns out we were

The lionfish I have enountered in the Pacific are generally not super agressive, but, they ARE territorial and will show "full plumage", if you will, when approached, but wisely I never hung around for very long to see if one would charge like a damsel will protecting it's nest.

If you encounter one of these animals, please, please, please, do not take it upon yourself to try and capture or kill it. Especially in Coz where we can't wear gloves or carry knives. A sting from just one of those spines can cause severe pain at best, and a pucture wound that will take a long time to heal.

The authorites need to start a census, all dive ops be in on it and have all sitings reported to a central data collection place and park divers need to be trained in capture, tagging and disposal of the animals.

Man, what an awsome opportunity for a young oceanography/biology grad student!!...send royalties to Sharky

 

[ggunn]

So, it doesn't appear to be a nuisance for THAT species. In fact, the activities of man could be seen as a rather fortuitous event, enabling it to migrate to new areas, out compete other species, and increase the spread of its own genes - which is the fundamental activity of all living things.

See, and that, I would argue, is not natural.

So what point is it that you are trying to make, exactly? Is everything that is "natural", by your definition, a good thing? Biological warfare perpetrated by spreading smallpox, again by your definition, is completely natural and a good thing from the point of view of the virus.

 

[sharky60]

So, it doesn't appear to be a nuisance for THAT species. In fact, the activities of man could be seen as a rather fortuitous event, enabling it to migrate to new areas, out compete other species, and increase the spread of its own genes - which is the fundamental activity of all living things.

See, and that, I would argue, is not natural. Besides which - if humans had thought about that before decimating the local grouper population, maybe the lionfish wouldn't be such an issue.

Are you talking about lionfish, or humans?

...must...resist...must...resist...must...resist...

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

So....it was due to some super magical mystery man in the sky? Or did some humans among us learn how to bypass the known laws of physics and chemistry?

Man is an animal. A part of nature. The activities of animals, including man, are also a part of nature.

That may be. It certainly wouldn't be the first time man appears to have acted not in his own best interest. As for the reef and the lionfish - maybe a new world order for the reef is in the works.

NudeDiver- Have you ever considered a career in politics? You appear to have all the necessary qualities. You seem to be really adept at using a lot of words and saying absolutely nothing constructive. You're definitely good at answering questions with questions. Giving one line, unsupported "sound bites". And answering questions by simply not addressing the question, attempting to deflect the question, or interjecting some philosophical point of view that has no bearing in the real world and certainly won't solve any problems.

 

[Christi]

See, and that, I would argue, is not natural. Besides which - if humans had thought about that before decimating the local grouper population, maybe the lionfish wouldn't be such an issue.

Grouper ARE NOT the natural predators of the Lion Fish...certain species of shark which are not inhabitants of the Caribbean are their only natural predators...

 

[NudeDiver]

The primary cause for this species to end up in the Atlantic and Caribbean is/was from people buying "exotic" fish for their home aquariums and then dumping them into the ocean when they got too big for the aquariums and/or devoured all of the other fish in the tank.

Yeah, I know. I read the article. But, again, I do not see anything "unnatural" about that process.

Lionfish multiply ferociously and it is not natural for them to be in this ocean...this is not their natural habitat...PERIOD!

And, again, it's all in how you define "natural". I will agree that it's not their NATIVE habitat, but LOTS of species, including man, have moved beyond their natural habitat.

I would argue it this way:

a). Lionfish have evolved characteristics that make them desirable by humans.
b). Humans have evolved the desire to possess that which they fancy.
c). As a result, humans have acquired lionfish and taken them home.
d). Lionfish have evolved predatory features that make them undesirable for homes.
e). Humans have evolved plenty of selfishness and shortsightedness.
f). Lionfish use this human weakness to exploit humans.
g). As a result, humans release lionfish into new environments for them to dominate.

I just see it as a natural process. I'm not arguing that the lionfish migration is a good idea. I'm not arguing that it should be stopped. I'm merely arguing that it's a natural process, like everything else that happens on this planet.

the problem is, this is a very agressive breeding and feeding fish with NO PREDITORS, so it can just eat as much as it wants without having to worry about being eaten...thus the eco system is vastly upset because this fish will over take all others.

The same could be said about humans.

So what point is it that you are trying to make, exactly? Is everything that is "natural", by your definition, a good thing?

If you can show me in any post above yours, where I said that ANYTHING is good, bad, or otherwise, please do so. As far as I know, I did not make any value judgements on the lionfish or activity by humans at all.

Biological warfare perpetrated by spreading smallpox, again by your definition, is completely natural and a good thing from the point of view of the virus.

I would say that yes, from the POV of the virus, it IS a good thing. The virus "wants" to spread its genes. It does not "care" what the mechanism is. If humans want to be involved, it's not going to make any difference to the virus.

What I am objecting to is the implied moralism concerning the "wrongness" of the lionfish being in an "unnatural" environment. From my point of view, it is neither wrong, nor right. It merely IS. If people want to commit lionfish genocide in the Carribean, that's fine - as long as you call it what it is. It's no more "natural" for humans to decimate the lionfish out of a sense of "protecting the environment" than it was for humans to introduce the lionfish to the environment in the first place.

NudeDiver- Have you ever considered a career in politics? You appear to have all the necessary qualities. You seem to be really adept at using a lot of words and saying absolutely nothing constructive. You're definitely good at answering questions with questions. Giving one line, unsupported "sound bites". And answering questions by simply not addressing the question, attempting to deflect the question, or interjecting some philosophical point of view that has no bearing in the real world and certainly won't solve any problems.

Hey, thanks.