Lionfish in Cozumel

[fireflock]

Studies off the coast of NC (where lionfish have been for a few years now) show that juvenile grouper are a favorite food of............lionfish.

So, your position would be that everything that happens on earth is a natural process?

 

[NudeDiver]

Studies off the coast of NC (where lionfish have been for a few years now) show that juvenile grouper are a favorite food of............lionfish.

So, your position would be that everything that happens on earth is a natural process?

Yes - but I dunno what that has to do with studies off the coast of NC.

As for whether groupers eat lionfish...

According to a recent study by Simon Fraser University's Department of Biological Sciences' Tropical Marine Ecology Lab, several native Bahamas groupers recently caught in Bahamas waters were found to have red lionfish in their stomachs. The study suggested that "native grouper species were preying on red lionfish with some regularity."

A grouper caught in January 2008 was also found to have eaten a red lionfish, although the study observed that this was considered to be an anomaly at the time, "due to both the venomous nature of the lionfish and their relatively recent introduction to the Bahamas."

"To our knowledge," the study asserts, "this is the first documented evidence of introduced red lionfish being preyed upon by native species within their novel range."

Information provided by: A. Maljkovic and T. E. Van Leeuwen Tropical Marine Ecology Lab, Department of Biological Sciences, Simon Fraser University, 8888 University Drive, Burnaby, BC, CanadaV5A 1S6

 

[geokr]

Man is an animal. A part of nature. The activities of animals, including man, are also a part of nature.
.

Man is not just another animal on the planet. Man has the capability to do things supernatural (that means above the natural) - that's what makes us different. Since you seem to need to incontrovertable proof, explain the naturalness of nuclear weapons. Who else makes these? What else is able to take natural substances in the earth and refine and convert them in a way nature never does - ever. Anywhere. Just because man is on the earth like every other creature doesn't mean everything he does can be explained by nature. There is no weapon-grade plutonium material in nature - man has found a way to convert nature in a way not found anywhere else in nature. Go look at a periodic table of elements. There are elements not found in nature on there - man created them and they are no less equal than the elements nature created. So he has the ability to act well above and beyond nature, even create things nature never intended and has elected to do so. Just as the idiot who tossed the lionfish into the Atlantic did.

 

[sharky60]

Yeah, I know. I read the article. But, again, I do not see anything "unnatural" about that process.

And, again, it's all in how you define "natural". I will agree that it's not their NATIVE habitat, but LOTS of species, including man, have moved beyond their natural habitat.

I would argue it this way:

a). Lionfish have evolved characteristics that make them desirable by humans.
b). Humans have evolved the desire to possess that which they fancy.
c). As a result, humans have acquired lionfish and taken them home.
d). Lionfish have evolved predatory features that make them undesirable for homes.
e). Humans have evolved plenty of selfishness and shortsightedness.
f). Lionfish use this human weakness to exploit humans.
g). As a result, humans release lionfish into new environments for them to dominate.

I just see it as a natural process. I'm not arguing that the lionfish migration is a good idea. I'm not arguing that it should be stopped. I'm merely arguing that it's a natural process, like everything else that happens on this planet.

Ok...can't resist any longer...:shocked2:

1.) it's not 'migration of the speices' that caused the inital problem... 'introduction' of the speices did, there is a HUGE difference and introduction is NOT a natural process. I've already given one example in my previous post of the pacu's effect on lakes. Water buffalo in the Amazon, ferrel pigs all over the planet, that mongoose like thing in Hawaii, the list goes on and on, these are unnatural introductions, not "migrations" causing problems.

The lionfish has been on the planet for thousands, maybe 100's of thousands of years, and has established it's own natural boundries for whatever reasons. If it was to mirgate naturally to the Carib/Atlantic shelf, it would have done it years ago.

2.) your argument of comparing this to man does not hold water...man migrated himself, for the most part.
Man was intended to populate the entire earth, how can we be stuarts of the plant if we are not on all of it? and yes, I know we are doing a lousy job of it, but that's not the point.
Without getting too philisophical (check spelling) or theological (same), it's in our nature to spread out, explore and settle. That's why we scuba dive and go into space, terra firma isn't enough for us, we need to keep exploring...for good or bad, that's what we do.

The lionfish has been in the same enviroment for the previously mentioned milleniums and obviously was not intended to move out beyond the boundries it had established for it's self over those years.

...pant, pant, pant... Ok...I'm done....soap box's put away...

 

[ggunn]

I think we all (I'm including myself) need to stop feeding the trolls.

 

[NudeDiver]

Man is not just another animal on the planet. Man has the capability to do things supernatural (that means above the natural) - that's what makes us different.

Some definitions for supernatural:
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.

None of these seem to apply to man and his abilities.

Since you seem to need to incontrovertable proof, explain the naturalness of nuclear weapons.

Um, fission? Possibly fusion too, depending on the design. You can find these nucelar processes going on in many places. Look up at the stars, for example.

Who else makes these?

Besides humans? No one, as far as I know. Doesn't make them in any way magical somehow supernatural.

What else is able to take natural substances in the earth and refine and convert them in a way nature never does - ever.

But man IS a part of nature.

There is no weapon-grade plutonium material in nature - man has found a way to convert nature in a way not found anywhere else in nature. Go look at a periodic table of elements. There are elements not found in nature on there - man created them and they are no less equal than the elements nature created. So he has the ability to act well above and beyond nature, even create things nature never intended and has elected to do so. Just as the idiot who tossed the lionfish into the Atlantic did.

Your argument is that man's activities are not natural. I simply disagree.

 

[NudeDiver]

Man was intended to populate the entire earth

Really? Intended? How do you come to that conclusion?

how can we be stuarts of the plant if we are not on all of it?

I dunno, my name isn't Stuart and I'm not particularly good with plants (as evidenced by the dying fern above my kitchen sink).

it's in our nature to spread out, explore and settle.

Ah...so these activities are then, shall we say, natural?

The lionfish has been in the same enviroment for the previously mentioned milleniums and obviously was not intended to move out beyond the boundries it had established for it's self over those years.

Again, with the "intended". I dunno where that comes from. But anyway, it took man millions and millions of years to get where he is today. Who is to say that millions and millions of years from now, the lionfish will not evolve in whatever way it needs, to rule the planet - long since disinhabited by humans, who managed to pollute their environment enough to wipe themselves out of existence? We just can't know such a thing. Neither can we know the intentions of the lionfish.

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

Some definitions for supernatural:
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.

None of these seem to apply to man and his abilities.

Um, fission? Possibly fusion too, depending on the design. You can find these nucelar processes going on in many places. Look up at the stars, for example.

Besides humans? No one, as far as I know. Doesn't make them in any way magical somehow supernatural.

But man IS a part of nature.

Your argument is that man's activities are not natural. I simply disagree.

A common fallacy in argument is for a person to go to a dictionary and choose a definition based on how well it supports their conclusion and not the definition that is applicable to the topic.

Defining everything that man makes or causes as natural, simply because man is a part of nature, excludes the definition of nature that applies to the topic. The one specifically characterized by "independent of people, their influence, or actions". Or put another way, the definition; Natural = man had nothing to do with it.

 

[Mawg]

really? Intended? How do you come to that conclusion?

I dunno, my name isn't stuart and i'm not particularly good with plants (as evidenced by the dying fern above my kitchen sink).

Ah...so these activities are then, shall we say, natural?

Again, with the "intended". I dunno where that comes from. But anyway, it took man millions and millions of years to get where he is today. Who is to say that millions and millions of years from now, the lionfish will not evolve in whatever way it needs, to rule the planet - long since disinhabited by humans, who managed to pollute their environment enough to wipe themselves out of existence? We just can't know such a thing. Neither can we know the intentions of the lionfish.

yawn ....... Scratch .......... Fart............

 

[don Francisco]

One thing I was wondering about, is the effect currents might have on the lionfish securing a widespread presence in Cozumel. When we were in French Polynesia, we didn't seem to encounter any when there was a steady current.....only in pretty calm areas. Mike

Not speaking as an expert, but I don't think we can count on Cozumel's current to protect the reef system. The Lionfish doesn't live high in the column, but hangs around the sheltered nooks near the bottm of the reef.

There's plenty of that kind of shelter among Coz's reefs and that's also where juveniles of all types hang out. So the lionfish gets plenty of food and shelter, and already has pretty cool "clothing". Can it get any better?