Bodies Recovered in School Sink aka Wayne's World, Hudson, FL

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In a forum such as this, it is better if the people who succomb to emotions easy refrain from participating. The value added ends up being less than those who are genuinely trying to work backwards from the terrible outcome to try and help others who may someday find themselves in a similar situation. Eveyone is always welcome but we need to check our emotional involvement at the door.
 
I am guessing Walter was part of the recovery team of divers who did the recovery.He will probably not speculate on your questions till he has accurate information if he responds at all.

I think you hit the nail on the head. As I mentioned in my previous post, there is a very specific detailed way that the cave community deals with these incidents. Although people may want immediate information to make sense of it all (let's face it, it just doesn't make sense, and it is hard for us to accept that), it takes some time to analyze the data, and recreate the dives to come up with a theory of what happened.
And even then, it will be at best a theory. The only two people who know specifically second by second what happened, can no longer tell. That is why we rely on the recovery teams and the IUCRR to help make sense of it all.

The cave community is very tight, and although there is plenty of politics to go around, each of us feels the pain when we lose a member. The foundations of cave diving are also built on accident analysis. This stuff is taken very seriously. Sometimes tensions can get a little high as we undergo this process, but hopefully in the end, the lessons learned will help all cave divers to dive more safely. Otherwise, it just stays a senseless loss.

Please be patient with the need for answers. I know that everyone on the recovery team and the IUCRR are doing everything that they possibly can to work through this tragedy.
 
This would certainly imply that the deceased divers were instructors, so I think that for all new and experienced divers reading this thread, the message is no matter what you experience or training, if you exceed it, you run very serious risks. Understand those risks before you decide to take them or even better, don't take them at all. As stated earlier, errors are not often forgiven in scuba diving.

Any OW level of certification and training is inadequate to prepare you for diving in an overhead, be it physical (cave, shipwreck) or virtual (decompression)....
 
I am guessing Walter was part of the recovery team of divers who did the recovery.He will probably not speculate on your questions till he has accurate information if he responds at all. Unlike the other OP who posted hearsay....

Thank you for the reply. And yes I gather that about Walter.

As for the OP he was trying to share what he though he knew as best he could. Right or wrong to some, it does foster discussion that helps in educating others and making them more aware.

This post may make that a bit more clear: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/1449685-post1.html
 
I am guessing Walter was part of the recovery team of divers who did the recovery.He will probably not speculate on your questions till he has accurate information if he responds at all. Unlike the other OP who posted hearsay....

Not quite sure its that, but he is plugged into the circle of folks who do this sort of thing.

Unfortunately what we have going on here is 2nd hand conjecture, misinformation, and speculation being performed by people who don't fully understand or comprehend this type of diving across the Internet in a public forum.

The names have been released, and what appears to be a number of 'rules' have been violated. There really is nothing more that needs said on the topic until a formal report is issued.

-Tim Owens
 
I am very curious as to who you are. You are talking a pretty good game but I am not aware of anyone that was on the phone with you during the recovery operation. I am also not sure where you are getting your information about cave certifications because you are 100% wrong.

You don't know who I am, so how would you know who spoke to me and about what? Certainly I wasn't on the phone with the recovery team during the recovery operation, but I doubt you were running around at the scene all evening checking to see who every single person was talking to. Just because I got one part of my info incorrect, doesn't mean I don't know a great deal about this event.

I'm with Walter on this one. I was with someone who "was on the phone" with the recovery team, who also knows the specifics of one of the divers' certification levels, and bpd's information is inaccurate. I'm not saying that bpd is trying to spread misinformation. It is possible bpd was speaking to someone from the sherrif's dept or some medical first responder, but not the actual cave diving recovery team.
....

.... This can take quite some time, due to the need for law enforcement to also complete their investigation, etc. Until that time, much of the information released can be hearsay, speculation, etc. ....

Don- Thank you for bringing a lot more clarity into the process. I did not mean to provide misinformation, I have formally apologized (see below) and have retracted the posts about their certifications. Most of the information I received came first hand to either me or my spouse or both of us. The certification information did not and I thought I could trust that source. It does not negate that I do have knowledge of this event and have been agonizing with others since they first went missing. What I said was not intended to be hearsay, and a lot of us, even those close to these two, are running on what little information we have. Unless anyone was in the water with Joe and Yessic (which obviously they weren't) or on the recovery team (which I acknowledge had the hardest job in all of this and understand they cannot release much of any information), we are all dealing with second hand information. Can ANYONE cut me some slack? I was doing the best I could with what I had.

Let me first apologize. I wrote this late at night and was apparently not completely clear in my post as to how some of the information came about. The certification levels of these divers were given to me by others NOT on scene and those I trusted to have facts. I will not provide any more "information". I am irritated at the misinformation I was given, irritated that I trusted the sources to find out they were wrong, irritated that I posted misinformation without knowledge, but am trying to be understanding that things were crazy last night. I was not the direct person on the phone, my spouse was and with a couple of different people. Perhaps one or both of us misunderstood, perhaps the information he received was not accurate, but it was all from trusted contacts, so we believed them. Whatever - it is what it is, and ultimately two friends are gone.

Haven't I said enough to try to fix this?

It appears you yourself are a bit emotional as well right now. I'm sure you were not monitoring and okaying all phone calls and subsequent calls. People talk, share, grieve with one another, come to grips, etc. Essentially it is a chain reaction and I am guessing no one checked with you first before calling others? :idk:

Please rather than attack, as always ends up beneficial to none, let's keep within the spirit of the forums intent and discuss what went went wrong and the preventative measures. :)

Thank you for trying, Missdirected, but apparently some people just need to attack as a way to deal with grief. Apparently, I'm the target now. See below -

Easy Chief...

Your buddy even said it himself - "I was not the direct person on the phone"

I am only emotional with the people that feel like they have to be part of something they were not nor know nothing about.

If you're going to quote, get it all: "I was not the direct person on the phone, my spouse was and with a couple of different people. Perhaps one or both of us misunderstood, perhaps the information he received was not accurate, but it was all from trusted contacts, so we believed them." No, I was NOT a part of the recovery, but YES I do know about this event. You don't know me. You don't know my spouse. You also don't know every single person who called these two men friends, so how do you presume to know what I do and do not know? In fact, several of us on this end of matters are "very curious as to who you are"? If you'll notice, I apologized for my misinformation and even went through all previous posts and retracted what I NOW know to be incorrect. Of course it appears that your intention is to attack me, not give me credit for trying to do anything right, so why would you notice my apology or corrections/retractions? Your assumption that I do not know anything about this is "100% wrong" and does not change the fact that I lost friends too.

In a forum such as this, it is better if the people who succomb to emotions easy refrain from participating. The value added ends up being less than those who are genuinely trying to work backwards from the terrible outcome to try and help others who may someday find themselves in a similar situation. Eveyone is always welcome but we need to check our emotional involvement at the door.

And this is why I am leaving. I came here as one of "those who are genuinely trying to work backwards from the terrible outcome to try and help others who may someday find themselves in a similar situation". I came here to talk facts, and have apologized for and retracted those statements I've made that were not facts. This was the place I chose to sort through the details and along with the help of others with far more knowledge than I have on the cave diving process come to some deeper understanding as part of the grieving process. I did not expect to be attacked and accused of being a liar. I have tried to remain open and objective in this mess and it doesn't matter, so why bother? I never came here to fight, certainly not to "win" as it appears is Walter's intent, so fine.

Walter, you need to be right so bad and win this? You got it. You win. You want to be the guy who has to be right on everything? Go ahead. I am willing to and have already admitted my mistakes and tried to make good of it. Too bad you can't see that, but it really doesn't matter anymore, does it? The biggest mistake I made was assuming this was a safe place to deal with this tragedy.
 
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......The names have been released, and what appears to be a number of 'rules' have been violated. There really is nothing more that needs said on the topic until a formal report is issued.


Why does almost every thread started in this forum go through this very same process where people say that nobody should be discussing it until all information is released? The fact is, most information never gets into the hands of the general population. I believe that we once again come back to emotions however I cannot say that for sure. The bottom line is, this forum is here so that people who do not know for sure what happened with a particular incident, can speculate as to what happened to try to come up with scenarios that may just some day help someone out. All of this is to be done with flaming the living or the deceased. It is also to be done with compassion for those who come here with what they believe to be helpful information. If information is only assumed to be correct, then it really should be presented as speculation only so that there is less confusion. However, this forum is about the breakdown and speculation of incidents so that people can learn from other's misfortune.


.......And this is why I am leaving. I came here as one of "those who are genuinely trying to work backwards from the terrible outcome to try and help others who may someday find themselves in a similar situation"........

FWIW, everybody is welcome but if emotions are going to get in the way, then it is best to lurk until the emotions are in check. My comment was not necessarily directed at you. If emotions can be checked and all parties can participate in a constructive manner, then all the power to all.
 
Why does almost every thread started in this forum go through this very same process where people say that nobody should be discussing it until all information is released? The fact is, most information never gets into the hands of the general population. I believe that we once again come back to emotions however I cannot say that for sure. The bottom line is, this forum is here so that people who do not know for sure what happened with a particular incident, can speculate as to what happened to try to come up with scenarios that may just some day help someone out. All of this is to be done with flaming the living or the deceased. It is also to be done with compassion for those who come here with what they believe to be helpful information. If information is only assumed to be correct, then it really should be presented as speculation only so that there is less confusion. However, this forum is about the breakdown and speculation of incidents so that people can learn from other's misfortune.

Already explained... to summarize...
Neither was full cave certified, a violation of the 'do not exceed your training' rule, and therefore, based on the published access policy of the NSS-CDS, trespassing.... If they were given permission by the property manager, then we need to call into question of validation protocol in place. There was also a reference to a visual-jump, a violation of the 'continuous guideline' rule...

There's a reason we call these rules and not suggestions.....

If you have cave diving questions, please ask them. Where this can spiral into futility is when some people, while well meaning, should not be responding just to put their 2 cents in on the subject. Lets just keep the discussion to released facts and generally accepted practices; not conjecture and speculation.

The only lesson to learn from this incident is to following the existing well established cave diving practices which have been largely unchanged since 1984.

1. Continuous guideline to the surface
2. Air Rule, thirds
3. Pay attention to depth, and understand the implications
4. Do not exceed training
5. 3 lights

-Tim
 
There were definite avoidable errors.

What were the errors? You imply that you know something that happened? (Besides diving beyond their certs).
 
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