Unbelievable video?

[swifttank]

My only concern is his actual gear. You can only wonder how well it is maintained after watching either his inflaitor or his spg leaking like a siv.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

How?

What depth are they at?
What support is in the immediate area (besides the cameraman)?
What is the dive background/water experience of the child?
What is the dive background of the "guy in the video"?

Personally I don't see an ounce of difference between your description of your daughter's history and this video... neither are situations I'd *personally* be comfortable putting a child into... but then... there are also too many things in both scenerios I *don't* know to make an informed condemnation...

Then, apparantly, you missed my point of my post. To repeat it =

And don't give me the -you are just being over-protective and fussy- thing here. My just turned 11 year old daughter has 87 dives. She is advanced certified. She gets to stay on the boat when conditions are too rough for our regular rec divers. She dives the hard stuff with just the DM's, instructors, tech guys, and no one else allowed. Because she has the skill. Haley can make a back roll, negative entry, dropping in at 1 foot vis in a ripping current. No problem, and no issue. Because we made her train just like anyone else and Dive. She loves this sport. She does blackwater river dives, night dives, and is wreck certified(she can run a line as well as anyone I've ever seen).
BUT, there is a difference between letting kids stretch their wings and placing them in possibly deadly situations.

These two statements make my daughter and this kid vastly different. Haley went through(on her own), the Open Water Course Just like all the other adults there. She had to do everything on her own, from theory, to tests, to pool, to sea. She was taught to understand pressure/volume, physics, physiology... all of it before she went in the pool. She was taught to problem-solve and handle her own gear.
She finished as a fully functional independent diver. Then she trained and dove until she had her skills where she could do all of the above with ease. She has been allowed to spread her wings. Not endangered.
Do you think this parent or child are even close to that? Not based on what I saw.
Even in a pool, one can suffer a lung over-expansion injury. Do you think that kid has been taught theory when the father is dangling him off his octo? And exactly how does either of them deal with equipment failure or emergency? They don't. Therefore this is a piss poor way to teach your child and is, in fact, dangerous.

My comparison to my own child was to respond that I, in fact, Do believe in letting kids grow and experiment, and spread their wings. I also believe that it is I who have to make sure that they are as safe as possible while doing it. It's called good parenting. You have to make your best choices. Spreading video of this is obviously showing the world his bad choices. And the fact of the video itself, shows that he thinks this is good and cool.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Is it necessary for a child to wear his own tank and BC? I used a 6-ft hose for my kids and they pretty much were under my arm or holding my hand when we were swimming. In some respects the child is easier to control when he is dependent on you for air. Not having to mess with the tank and bc also provides some benefits in my mind.

The only real additional danger that I see is that if they have a first stage failure, then they don't have a redundant system to share.???

Yes. it is necessary. And if you are controlling him, what happens if you let go? Kid in danger.

Well, you are an instructor (which does not appear to be the case on the videos), so I will bow to your superiority.

As long as the instructor manuals allow teaching minors in this way, then fine. It does seem strange that there are no instructor 'rules' against this though.

There are rules and standards specific to kids that have to do with stdent /instructor ratio and maximum depth. The rest of the rules for all apply. Would an adult be allowed to learn this way? Would this be proposed as the best way or acceptable for them?

Wow, I thought that I would be flamed (more). I can assure everyone that the very slow progression of training a young child to first freedive, then to do mask clearing skills (without scuba) and other skills like removal and recovery of mask fins and snorkel from "the deep end" all serve to provide the child with good watermanship skills and confidence in their abilities and the ability to function well underwater when slightly stressed. Taking then snorkeling many times in the open ocean also provides skills and confidence that is just not available in a typical scuba class.

I went through all these steps before the scuba gear comes in play. The issue about ensuring that the child understands the consequences of holding their breath is vital, but it is not a whole lot more abstract than ensuring that they understand that riding their bike down the driveway and into the street without looking for traffic is also potentially fatal. Of course kids get run over by cars all the time, but this is a risk that SOME parents are willing to expose their children to.

I do not condone this type of training, and there are relatively few 8 yr olds that can probably do it, but my two boys were able to. For open water, we started off with a 6 ft hose and I kept the kid pretty much under my arm. He was NOT going up unless I allowed it and I needed to see bubbles before we moved up. After a few dives like that (in say 8-10 ft), then I put the kid on his own 30 cu-ft pony bottle mounted on a simple backpack. We then alternate back and forth from the long hose and to the pony bottle, which allows an extension of the dive time. Regulator removal , mask removal, true buddy breathing are all mastered early on. If the water is warm, the exposure suit can be minimal and the bouyancy swing is negligible, so a BC is not really needed.

If weighted well, kids learn bouyancy control well using only their lungs and when they do finally tranistion to a BC, they are not prone to fidgeting with their BC constantly like many OW students (and cetified divers) do. Their freedive training also allows them to comfortable do headfirst descents, clear ears quickly and also be able to swim and use fins well.

I've been diving now for over a year with my son who recently turned 10. He dives with a full compliment of dive gear including a knife, weight belt, BC, 6 cu-ft pony bottle, 63 cu-ft primary tank, light etc. He has done a couple of night dives and the last one we had fairly high current and visibility was bad (around 8 feet). He has a great time at night! I'm not inclined to pursue certification for him anytime in the near future.

I find it funny that so many people were so critical of the video. FWIW, the kids trim and bouyancy looked pretty damn good to me.

Yes. Everyone needs their own air supply and BC from the start. On a hose, the person with it has the air. If Anything separates the two.....
C'mon ya'll know better than that. I am obviously not against teaching kids. My daughter at 10, my son at 12... But. They need and deserve the full training that everyone should get. They need their own gear.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

For those not instructors, please note that it is against Every agency that I know of's standards for a dive professional to allow those not trained and certified through some agency to dive. So. Any DM or Instructor who allows and encourages someone to dive is breaking a very big standard. This can get their professional rating revoked. And they all know it. So, what agency does an instructor who has someone diving, night diving too, working for? I mean, I am responding to a publicly made statement.
I think that if you have the instructor rating on your ID here, it makes people trust what you say and emulate what you do...

 

[J.R.]

Do you think this parent or child are even close to that? Not based on what I saw.
Even in a pool, one can suffer a lung over-expansion injury. Do you think that kid has been taught theory when the father is dangling him off his octo? And exactly how does either of them deal with equipment failure or emergency? They don't. Therefore this is a piss poor way to teach your child and is, in fact, dangerous.

No... I didn't think I missed your point point at all. Your point is that YOUR daughter has been trained in a manner and to a level YOU find acceptable based on what YOU have been taught is appropriate... Your point is that you find children being put adult diving situations is OK with you if "done right"... You're point is that... in YOUR opinion, what you think you see in a video clip doesn't match up with YOUR standards and is therefore 'child endangerment' and 'evil'...

Pretty close???

... and YOU have apparently missed My point...

1: How do you know the child is "getting training" and isn't already a diver?
2: How you know what depth they were working at?
3: How do you know...

Oh heck, you're going to see what you WANT to see anyway... some see flailing arms, out of control people, lack of expertise, etc., etc...

I see a dad who may well be in fairly shallow water and is dealing with the fact that each breath cycle has that much more affect when shallow... I see a dad (?) showing off his kid's skills... I see a kid who's got a weightbelt on... and is trimmed out pretty well... and COMFORTABLE WITH IT. I see a rather 'practiced' Euro-style kiss at the end where BOTH remove their regs... go throught the drill and replace... all without any apparent hesitation, difficulty or other issue. I see a kid who does a nifty 'hand swap' with his reg earlier... in a very relaxed way...

... but, like I said we see what we want to see.

I'll take your word for it that your daughter is competent... I have no reason to believe otherwise... but I'm pretty sure that there are any number of people out there who... seeing things the way they WANT to see them... might have issues with what you seem to take a lot of pride in... they see boogy-men you don't... they have fears for your daughter that you don't... and their risk tollerance doesn't match yours...

... kinda' like making judgements about what you think you see in a video based on your own perceptions of "what's right"...

 

[Aquatic Eagle]

1: How do you know the child is "getting training" and isn't already a diver?

Isn't the title of the video "One star dive traning"?

 

[Dr Neil]

I stayed away from this thread for a couple of days but I continued to think about it.

1. Actually there were 2 negligent individuals, the "dad" and the camra person. Why didn't they give the kid his own tank and regulator?
2. More good intentions go sour with the statement, "hey watch this." Maybe not this time, and maybe not underwater.
3. Life lesson for the child - it's OK to share life support equipment underwater. Can you just see it, a group of teenagers who would think it is acceptable to dive with just one set of equipment. For goodness sake, even golf courses won't let you share one set of clubs between two golfers!

Bottome line..... would you allow YOUR CHILD to do this?

 

[ScubaSteve]

This was a fun thread. I am glad I got to argue...AHEM...I mean discuss my point of view a few pages back. And with EVERYTHING that has been spoken since, I still go back to my original post and how I ended it......you'll have to go look for yourself. No argument or discussion point has changed my point of view on this subject.

 

[J.R.]

Isn't the title of the video "One star dive traning"?

 

[Gombessa]

Yeah but who posted the video? One of the participants, someone with direct knowledge of the dive, or someone who found it and labeled it whatever they wanted?