Why NOT DIR?

[Kingpatzer]

Hey King,

I just got through reading through some of your older posts just to see where you are coming from and it looks like you are a fairly new diver. I really don't see how you have experienced as many arrogant DIR divers in real life as you make out.

I am fairly new. I just logged my 100th dive yesterday. I picked up my OW cert in April for a vacation, and then the wife and I started doing classes and weekend dives locally, slowly collecting gear and experience.

I've had several meetings with DIR folks.

I had the joy of doing some diving near (not in) a wreck while the DIR crowd informed my kid how he was about to die a horrible death because he wasn't DIR.

I had the joy of going into a DIR oriented LDS where I was ridiculed for wanting a dive computer.

And I had the fun of running into a DIR guy on vacation who ridiculed my (and everyone elses') gear during the surface intervals.

Lastly, I've run into a few of them while doing different classes at local quarries.

Obviously it's possible that you might live in some DIR epicenter of prick divers but my guess is your opinion is based off of what you have experienced on the internet.

Let's say that the internet has suggested to me that the incidents I related above aren't accidental or merely bad karma on my part.

Four years ago I was the same way when I got (re)certified. I assumed DIR meant arrogant divers until I actually meet some. I would strongly encourage to take a fundies class or maybe sit in on a Fundies opening sessions - some instructors will let you. This will give you a chance to experience what it is from the source.

I don't presume that there are no nice guys who dive DIR. I have met a few. But when asked why I don't do DIR -- the answer is "those who represent the organization have convinced me that associating with them will not provide me with a pleasant diving experience."

 

[underwasser bolt]

All I can tell you is that I have personally NEVER seen this here in MA/CT/ME/RI where I dive. I've NEVER told anyone I think what GUE teaches is the "right way to dive". It's simply how I dive. If anything, I do it because it's a good way (IMO!!!) to learn to safely dive (I wasn't safe coming out of OW). There's a good chance if I already knew how to safely dive (that need NOT be DIR!), I might not be interested in GUE tranining either. It's "A" system, not "THE" system. Everyone I've ever met who has actually taken a GUE course and with whom I've discussed this feels the same way. This includes GUE instructors.

Rainer, good response. My son finished OW a few weeks ago; just today I was with him diving. On dive 1 of the day I aborted the dive because he was unsafe. we returned to a training location and spent the whole day training. I even caught myself several times saying, "son, do it right." DIR is a strong system of diving, if we can just discard the elitism.

 

[Rainer]

Rainer, good response. My son finished OW a few weeks ago; just today I was with him diving. On dive 1 of the day I aborted the dive because he was unsafe. we returned to a training location and spent the whole day training. I even caught myself several times saying, "son, do it right." DIR is a strong system of diving, if we can just discard the elitism.

All I can tell you is that among those who teach DIR around here (two instructors) and those who have had more than a couple of GUE courses, the elitism you speak of isn't present. People just want to have fun diving. Isn't that why we all dive? For many of us, being safe is a prereq for having fun. For SOME of us, a means to safety was GUE instruction. That's all. Doesn't mean you have to dive how GUE suggests/teaches. Doesn't mean you should dive how GUE suggests/teaches. It's just what some choose to do. It's sad that a LABEL(!) could alone keep people from at least investigating GUE instruction. Sure, if you've had a ton of bad experiences with divers claiming to be DIR (I really do wonder how many actually have GUE training, and in particular more than just GUE-F training), I can see avoiding it. I know if the local GUE/DIR guys around here had been asses, I too would avoid it.

 

[Cave Diver]

You choose to use the terminology. You are free to not use those words. But if you choose to use them, then you are saying that those who aren't following your method are not doing it right.


And, I'm not saying you do those things. I am saying a substantial sub-population of the DIR folks do do those things. If you aren't one of those people why do you choose to associate yourself with them?

No, I'm not saying that at all. Thats like saying because I choose to dive a Ford and it's built Ford tough, every other car isn't.

And thats like saying because I drive a Chevy, and everyone else driving Chevy's is driving like an idiot, that I should quit driving my truck (which I happen to like) just so I won't be associated with them.

Your opinion is shaped by your experiences. My experiences have obviously been different, so I think this is a point of contention we will just have to agree to disagree on.

I'm not trying to "convert" you, or "convince" you that my method is better or worse than yours. What I am trying to do is clear up some of the misconceptions that are so prevelant on this topic so that others can make up their minds based on factual information rather than emotional responses.

 

[texdiveguy]

One of the major issues that I see in newer DIR minded divers, both sport and tech....is they tend to spend a hug amount of time concerned with other divers perceptions of them. They are fully wrapped up in the image and not so much in the diving aspect of the sport. I fairly would add though I also see this trend lesson as they mature with their course of direction in selecting the DIR philosophies. I am not a DIR diver, but try to learn from several styles of diving...this works best for me.

 

[Sloth]

I know how you feel.

I've been ridiculed for diving doubles on recreational boat charter dives.

I've been ridiculed (By a DM no less) for using my rear dump to release air (that statement makes me laugh for some reason).

I've been ridiculed for not wanting to enter a wreck at 100' on a single 80.

I've been ridiculed for diving with a can light during the day.

The one consist is that $%^holes exist everywhere. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water just to spite them.

 

[Rainer]

I am fairly new. I just logged my 100th dive yesterday. I picked up my OW cert in April for a vacation, and then the wife and I started doing classes and weekend dives locally, slowly collecting gear and experience.

I've had several meetings with DIR folks.

I had the joy of doing some diving near (not in) a wreck while the DIR crowd informed my kid how he was about to die a horrible death because he wasn't DIR.

I had the joy of going into a DIR oriented LDS where I was ridiculed for wanting a dive computer.

And I had the fun of running into a DIR guy on vacation who ridiculed my (and everyone elses') gear during the surface intervals.

Lastly, I've run into a few of them while doing different classes at local quarries.



Let's say that the internet has suggested to me that the incidents I related above aren't accidental or merely bad karma on my part.



I don't presume that there are no nice guys who dive DIR. I have met a few. But when asked why I don't do DIR -- the answer is "those who represent the organization have convinced me that associating with them will not provide me with a pleasant diving experience."

Dude, sounds like you've had some really crappy experiences with divers claiming to be DIR. Sound like a bunch of a-holes. That sucks. I'd be put off, too. Just isn't what I've EVER experienced around here.

 

[RoyN]

I'm not trying to "convert" you, or "convince" you that my method is better or worse than yours.

AAAHHHHHHhHhhhhhh.....you got me converted.

Right now, I'm trying to find a second stage regulator for myself, already got the bungle cord for it.

Sorry everybody if this sounds a little abnormal, just trying to put some laughs here.

Dude, sounds like you've had some really crappy experiences with divers claiming to be DIR. Sound like a bunch of a-holes. That sucks. I'd be put off, too. Just isn't what I've EVER experienced around here.

Don't worry Rainer, he is going through what I went through with my local DIR in my area who weren't very nice people. But I've have put them behind me and now I'm actually looking forward and exploring DIR. There are always crappy people everywhere, its just we haven't learn how to deal with them yet. The only thing stopping me from being full DIR is I have no money at the moment.

Royston

 

[Kingpatzer]

I'm not trying to "convert" you, or "convince" you that my method is better or worse than yours. What I am trying to do is clear up some of the misconceptions that are so prevelant on this topic so that others can make up their minds based on factual information rather than emotional responses.

People's actions are also factual points of data for making up one's mind on a topic.

The question is "why don't you dive DIR?"

My answer is "Because I've encountered too many DIR divers who are first class jerks." That's not an emotional response.

I don't, for example, presume you're a jerk, CD. I don't even presume you're the exception to the rule.

I do, however, have no desire to associate with your organization because I've met with enough people to reasonably believe that your organization has a substantial sub-population of elitist snobs.

Suggesting a wife leaves an abusive husband isn't following an emotional response -- even if he only beats her on the first friday of the month. Heck -- he's clean and sober and loving more than 95% of the time . . . but that still doesn't mean that sticking around for the 5% of the time when he's abusive is prudent.

It's not an emotional response. I can get everything DIR can offer me from organizations from which I've received no abuse. Why should I choose to go DIR?

The one point that was made up thread however, that is something to think about is that I can only go by what they claimed. It is possible they don't have DIR/GUE training, or that whatever level of training they had was not significant.

Still, for those of us who don't dive DIR -- why should we? Why does GUE deserve my money and time over and above any other organization out there that can provide me precisely the same training oportunities?

 

[jtivat]

Can you do it, yes. Be "DIR compliant," No.

SPG on the chest could interferfere with clipping off deco bottles. If you can arrange it so it's still accessible/visible without bowing, dangling, creating excess drag or entanglement hazard, then it meets the criteria.

No bowing or drag and how will it get in the way of a deco bottle there but not on the left hip? Works fine for me.

Can light needs to be ditchable. It's considered ballast and in an emergency you should be able to dump it (although I'd hate to dump a $1k light!). If it's secured on the right side in a way that makes this possible, while still being able to hold the long hose securely, then it meets the criteria.

Why would this be the only ditchable part of the rig?

A 200' dive would call for 18/45 and 50% and 100% Both deco bottles should be on the left side so as to not interfere with the long hose deployment.

Not a big deal to me I would dive your gas but don't get it?

In regards to computer usage, a computer may be used under this critera: "Divers that choose to use computers should do so after becoming well-versed in diving limits and then using the computers primarily as an educational tool."

Don't really use one but would if I had one that ran V-planner (maybe soon).

In other words, you can use a computer, but you need to understand the information it is giving you and have a backup plan in the event it fails/floods,falls off, gets eaten by a shark. Plan the dive beforehand and dont blindly rely on the information the computer spits out at you. (Surprise with this one eh?)

Not that surprised and totally agree!

Bungied long hose, no. The concern here is being able to restow it easily after the reason for deployment is resolved. (i.e once you get to deco stop and switch to bottles from backgas, you dont want it just flapping around cuz you cant get it back into bungies easily).

This one I really don't get first I am 6'6" and 250LBS. and it just does not work for me (yes I could get one a bit longer) also I feel it is less of an entanglement hazard stowed between my wing and tank. It would be easier to deploy while in a tight spot in a wreck or cave. The restowing is hard but could be wrapped if that is an issue to finish a dive.

Solo. No. DIR is above all, centered around a team diving concept.

I get this also but still do some dives solo

So a guess these are my reasons for not being DIR I would not mind taking a fundies course to see what it is really like.