Why NOT DIR?

[Cave Diver]

I have a question regarding the commitment to DIR. If you consider yourself DIR totally, and you were assigned for two years to work on a Diego Garcia type island but totally remote, with unreal coral wall drop offs, fish everywhere, just beautiful ocean, clear and 80 F, BUT..you were the only diver there and you only had air to dive with, would you dive? Or say "no thanks, I don't have my team here".

If you are the only diver there and its such a remote island, why would I expect to even have air available for me? And if there is air available, why would one assume there would be no other divers?

 

[Cave Diver]

Why cannot it be accepted that not every diver will care to take something called "Fundies" or want to dive within a team. This is a typical rant that all non DIR divers are uninformed and unsafe and hence strokes. How can you say that and offer any proof to support that statement other than typical DIR bias. The OP started this thread with a seemingly innocent question, the question seemed innocent but it was in fact a loaded question, that being that he asumed DIR was better and therefore why wouldn't everyone admit it and go DIR. The reason is because the assumption he made is incorrect.

You are wrong in the assumption as to the intent of my question.

I didnt not *assume* DIR was better, nor did I ask anyone to admit it. If you have read any of my numerous other posts, I readily acknoweldge that there are many divers out there who dive safely and who possess good skills, yet are not "DIR."

My question was and is intended to address some of the misinformation that seems prevelant in regard to this. If someone is doing or not doing something out of ignorance about it, that's one thing. If they are informed about it and still choose another path, thats an entirely different matter.

My interest was to bring some of the misinformation to light so people could base their decision on facts, not just suppositions.

If anyone still has questions that haven't been covered here, feel free to PM me and I will do my best to answer them for you.

amazing the misinformation and wrong assertions that are presented here.

THAT is the exact reason I started this thread.

I am surprised there aren't more responses who say they don't dive DIR for the same reasons I don't: it's so expensive! Diving is expensive enough; I was shocked when I started looking into GUE courses. Pay to fly an instructor across the country to give me a diving lesson? Right.

It's not for beginners. I've heard several times that you won't get as much out of a fundies course if you don't have your act together going in.

The cost is relative to availabilty. When I took a course in Houston, the cost was around $100 per person and one of the probably one of the best values in diving I've had. There were several new divers in my class as well. A few dropped out, but one struggled through it and showed a considerable amount of improvement by the end of the class. I think that almost anyone could benefit from the class, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Sloth]

Why? Sometimes it is necessary to descend very fast in order to reach a particular site within a high current environment. I even recall listening to GI "brag" about how he could make it from zero to 200 feet in a minute (or something like that). I often descend much faster than I ascend, especially within the mid-point of a dive say, 80 to 150 feet, where the pressure change is not that fast and I don't need to waste time and air slowly drifting downward. i would think that making a rapid descent could even be considered safer (and more fun) because it saves air and allows more useful bottom time. I would probably never intentionally let myself get 10 lbs bouyant on an ascent, but I often allow myself to be 10-12 lbs (or more) negative to aid my descent and thus expend little energy on the way down.

Obviously an uncontrolled descent could present equalization and other potential problems, but you seem to be equating the ascent and descent? I only learn about DIR from the internet, so I am really curious as to what is being taught in this regard.

What JeffG said.

10fpm descent is used for skill development purposes, nothing more. The only thing that was emphasized on descent was to descend at the same rate as your buddy. The ascent/descent drill is only used as a buoyancy and task managing drill.

Like anything else, conditions, situation, dive goal, and training level dictate how you execute.

OH and JeffG, the "quarries" we use in Hawaii are much better then the ones most people use for skills training :mooner:

 

[Kingpatzer]

I dont walk around dive sites critiquing gear, or telling people they are "doing it wrong." I'm not the SCUBA police. :no

If you use the terminology of "doing it right," then yes, you do go around telling people they are doing it wrong. Words actually mean things. It takes a rather high level of arrogance to presume that one has all the "right" answers, and it actually demonstrates precisely the opposite of professionalism.

People who are legitimately excellent at what they do start with the realization that they can always be better and that that includes updating and altering even basic procedures as new information comes along. And that realization means that they are thus never "doing it right," but only, at best, "doing it well."

No matter how many good ideas come out of the DIR crowd, the fanaticism and religious attitudes starts with the very terminology of the method, and precludes precisely what the more reasonable cult members seek to achieve.

Meanwhile, the fundaholic acolytes run around and insult and intimdate every non-DIR diver they encounter.

DIR does far more harm than good for the diving community precisely because they confuse arrogance with competence. And, while they have plenty of the latter, they do everything they can to wrap it up in as much of the former as possible.

Usually people come to me and ask questions about my gear which opens the door. I politely answer any of their questions and will discuss any of my choices with them as long as they are interested. Sometimes that conversation is 5 minutes, sometimes its an hour.

That's great. I'm glad you're polite about it. That's a step up from most DIR folks one encounters.

 

[Rainer]

If you use the terminology of "doing it right," then yes, you do go around telling people they are doing it wrong. It takes a rather high level of arrogance to presume that one has all the right answers, and it actually demonstrates precisely the opposite of professionalism.




That's great. I'm glad you're polite about it. That's a step up from most DIR folks one encounters.

No, your logic is retarded. If I wear DiveRite, does it mean I think your gear is "wrong"? Of course not. Get passed the marketing that lead to a name. Seriously, grow up.

 

[Sloth]

If you use the terminology of "doing it right," then yes, you do go around telling people they are doing it wrong. It takes a rather high level of arrogance to presume that one has all the right answers, and it actually demonstrates precisely the opposite of professionalism.

That's great. I'm glad you're polite about it. That's a step up from most DIR folks one encounters.

Then there is the other side of the coin that takes a term such as Doing it Right as a personal attack on their diving abilites and thus ignore all the positives.

For fear of offending people like you I avoid the term DIR when talking to people and just say GUE tech diving when talking about DIR in general or diving fundamentals class when talking about the DIR-f class.

It's amazing how many people just turn off due to three little letters. It's a shame that DIR is so ingrained because I don't think there would be so much controversy without it.

 

[underwasser bolt]

It's a shame that DIR is so ingrained because I don't think there would be so much controversy without it.

its not the letters, its the attitude. I strive to practice DIR techniques. I am sure there are many reasonable DIR divers; the more vocal ones (ones with the most influence, right or wrong) are horrible.

 

[Kingpatzer]

No, your logic is retarded.

Actually, my logic is impeccable.

When someone says that "doing it right" is constituted by following a set list of procedural and equipment standards, I presume that they mean exactly what they say in that statement.

My problem with the statement is, as I pointed out earlier, that it leads to a level of arrogance in enough people following said list that it is harmful to the diving community as a whole. My support for this claim is direct observation of self-identified DIR divers both in person and on various boards.

And, by way of example, I did not insult anyone personally. Your response to my statement was to engage in a personal attack. While the irony or your response about my logic being itself a classic logical fallacy certainly brings a smile to my face, it does nothing to make me want to associate with others like you.

Why? Because diving with people who insult me for my choices rather than engaging with me as a person who might have something to contribute does not enhance either of our diving experiences or make either of us better divers.

And the attitude you just expressed is precisely the attitude the DIR crowd around my area projects every time someone is unfortunate enough to encounter them.

 

[jtivat]

I keep seeing the references to "one size fits all" and I think that a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions on the system, based off of their reading on the internet and exposure to "self proclaimed, yet ill informed advocates."

There is nothing that requires doubles on every dive.

There is nothing that requires a can light on every dive.

There is nothing that requires a drysuit on every dive.

There is nothing that disallows using a weight belt.

The gear configuration is built around a minimalist approach and is much more streamlined and easy to use when properly configured.

It appears too many of you are equating DIR with full cave or tech diving and not realizing that it does[/] make allowances for openwater recreational diving.
Many of you are also not realizing that it can be applied to just about any situation because someone else has said that it can't.

Ok then here are my questions

On 200' wreck dive can I

Put SPG on my left chest D ring?
Attach my can light to the right side of my plate and carry it in my right hand?
Put 40% (also can I use 40%) on my left side and 100% on my right?
Use 19/35 back gas?
Use a computer?
Bungee my long hose between my wing and right tank?
And lastly do it solo?

 

[underwasser bolt]

My point exactly; every time Rainer posts, several less divers will never consider DIR; I am but one.