Question Is GUE jump protocol unsafe in 0 viz??

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

As far as I understand, GUE would have this protocol when making a unmarked jump from a system line:

• Diver 1 places a personal arrow and a cookie (to indicate presence/exit side).
• Diver 1 ties spool into the arrow.
• Divers 2 and 3 add their cookies on exit side of the new temporary T.
• Diver 1 ties spool to the jump line. Nobody adds any further cookies as the team should recognise their spool.

I’ve seen some places teach that divers 2 and 3 should add their cookies (or REMs) also close the the jump spool - so two sets of cookies/REMs per jump. Diver 1 would not place additional markers (so in a team separation scenario, have no way to indicate they are out).

Is the GUE protocol unsafe in zero viz? What’s your experience and preference?

 

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

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[Tom_Ivan]

I can't really answer for GUE but they've been around a long time and I can't see them having maintained a procedure that is "unsafe is zero viz".

If your jump is being tied to the end of the jump line. ie creating a continuation of the line then it wouldn't cause a navigational error. Is that the scenario?

If your jumping to the middle of another line then I'd want a cookie to indicate that this is my teams spool.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Same issue with the primary reel, no? GUE doesn’t teach placing cookies when you tie into the main line. Your reels and spools should be visibly marked, and how likely is truly ZERO vis at the exact moment you reach the reel or spool? I don’t know if that’s GUE’s logic—just my thinking.

 

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

Same issue with the primary reel, no? GUE doesn’t teach placing cookies when you tie into the main line. Your reels and spools should be visibly marked, and how likely is truly ZERO vis at the exact moment you reach the reel or spool? I don’t know if that’s GUE’s logic—just my thinking.

Same issue with primary reel. I started thinking about it after reading an article and after some late night heated discussions with a dive buddy.

This article Zen and the Art of Mexican Cave Navigation proposes (and UTJ teaches) marking jumps with two sets of REMs where GUE might use just an arrow + 3 cookies:

The rationale being total loss of visibility and other divers pulling your spool.

Note that the method above is internally inconsistent, as Diver 1 has no way to mark their presence in case of team separation, so it’s maybe more useful for solo exploration.

 

[Manatee Diver]

These protocols should be seen as guidelines. Look at your line is there any confusion about how to get out? Mark it.

But in general you are jumping from the middle of one line to the end of another line, so there is no confusion about where you are going as the spool/reel as it the end of the line, which is what the protocols is written for.

 

[Manatee Diver]

The rationale being total loss of visibility and other divers pulling your spool.

You never pull a spool unless you can visually account for all members of your team. Markers should never be relied on, they can and do fall off. I find dropped markers all the time.

 

[jadairiii]

Is the GUE protocol unsafe in zero viz? What’s your experience and preference?

Why would you be making a jump in zero vis? Point of leaving the cookies, per my GUE Cave 1 class, is, on exit, in vis or if the vis went to zero, you could feel or see if people from your team are in front of you (their cookie is gone) or still behind you (their cookie is still there)

A jump in zero vis would be some serious exploration sh*t. Way above my paygrade.

 

[johnkendall]

GUE Protocol is to not remove anything if you're exiting in zero vis. Leave all lines and markings.
Similarly, if you're seperated from your team, then leave all markings/lines in place. As mentioned above stuff falls off the line sometimes.

Thanks
John

 

[jadairiii]

GUE Protocol is to not remove anything if you're exiting in zero vis. Leave all lines and markings.
Similarly, if you're seperated from your team, then leave all markings/lines in place. As mentioned above stuff falls off the line sometimes.

Thanks
John

I will preface this with the fact that it has been a few years since I took Cave 1, but...if the team gets separated, zero vis, and diver 1 gets to the jump tie in, feels 2 cookies, but needs to exit, if he leaves his cookie, and exits, doesnt that create an issue with diver 2 when he gets to the cookies, finds both still there, and now makes (the wrong) assumption his buddy is behind him? Creating the possibility that diver 2 goes back to look for diver 1 or waits for diver 1.

Or, during the GUE EDGE the divers agree, if they get separated, and it is zero vis, to leave the cookies and head for the border and if everyone doesn't surface, well, guess you are still in the cave?