Zero to Hero? The Good ole' Days? You can't please anyone!

[MXGratefulDiver]

Why NOT tell a new diver to do OW, AOW, Nitrox, Deep, Nav, and Rescue in as short order as possible . . . wouldn't that basically give them that great, expansive class we are all mourning?

Depends on how it's taught ... but the number of divers I've worked with and talked to who have come out of AOW saying they didn't learn anything suggests that simply stringing the classes together like that isn't an effective learning model..

Perhaps it would work if the class was long enough, and the expectation was high enough, that students were able to assimilate new skills and knowledge from each part of the progression ... but that doesn't seem to be the case with a significant number of students who are passed quickly through theses classes. Some of them are "book smart", but completely unable to apply what they learned outside of a supervised environment.

I think the biggest problem in the modern instructional approach has been the move toward a "checklist" mentality where a student performing a skill once ... while kneeling on the bottom ... is considered "mastery" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[it_mike]

Are they they sum of the old days curriculum? I don't know what those classes were like so I am wondering if someone can fill me in on how closely all those classes combined equate to old style of training.

**snip **

What I would have liked better is an experienced diver taking me 'under their wing' and showing me a lot of the stuff rather than doing them all through a shop that pushed heaps of inappropriate equipment on me and rushed through skills I really wasn't comfortable with at the end of the course.

You hit what was, from my perspective, the big difference. Yes, the old way included all core competency found in OW/AOW/PPB/Rescue, but it wasn't each in sequence. It was an experienced diver, teaching parts of each all at once, while mentoring the student through a lot more dives. Early dives were planned by the instructor, while they only double checked the student's plan for later dives.

Check out programs like BSAC for examples of how training used to work (according to my understanding of BSAC).

 

[DCBC]

If Wayne teaches everything for Nova Scotia in 50 hours, everything for Hawaii should be easy in 24 hours. If the student choses to ignore his training is it the instructors fault?

Hal, I think Thal has a point. If the card that is given is supposedly 'universal,' why should its requirements be based upon clear warm water? If you were teaching under cold water conditions, it would be reasonable for you to modify your training program to meet the requirements of the environment. I see that there is a fundamental problem if the training agency prohibits the modification of the requirements for certification to accommodate a more harsh environment. In this way it seems to me that they are enforcing a warm water training program onto a diver who may only know cold water and bad conditions.

 

[Sas]

Check out programs like BSAC for examples of how training used to work (according to my understanding of BSAC).

Yea I am in a BSAC club and have had BSAC training (Sports Diver and 90% of Dive Leader). I much prefer that style of teaching. I don't think it is for everyone though, especially if you are in a hurry to get qualified but I liked how pretty much what I worked on was worked out with me and my instructor/s and then I got to take my time learning the skills. I also liked how a much higher standard has been required in these courses than the SSI ones I have done (have done most of my early training with SSI).

 

[Walter]

We can't have it both ways, so which is it? A comprehensive class that covers everything, or "module" training that allows you to master one level before being introduced to the next?

First, no one class covers "everything."

If you've taken a typical OW class you should immediately take the AOW class because you're probably not ready to be on your own. Once you've finished AOW, you still need work to get up to the level I think you should be to be on your own.

If you've taken a comprehensive OW class, you are ready to be on your own and you shouldn't take a typical AOW class at all. You are already far beyond what that class can do for you. Go out, dive on your own for about 25 dives or so to get some reference points. Then take a true advanced class.

 

[drbill]

As I've written in other threads, to accomplish what the thre week "OW" class I took in the 60s presented would require a string of classes costing well over $1,000 today (closer to $1,500). Of course when I took the class it was pretty pricey for that point in time.

I don't have any idea how such a course would fare with folks today (especially given the economy). No question it would make them better divers (and probably turn them into dive bums like myself).

 

[Bob DBF]

In the Good ol' Days : The student had to possess good swimming and in-water ability and be medically checked for diving prior to beginning training. After completion of the Basic / OW Course (depending upon the Agency) the student would complete what today would amount to OW, AOW and Rescue courses. The result was a good diver who was prepared to dive as a valued member of a buddy team (and do a sub-surface rescue if required) and dive independently without supervision. The diver could read surf conditions, understand where to enter and exit the water, project air consumption and generally dive safely on the first day of receiving his C-Card.

Your description is a bit different than my experience. In 1963 you could order scuba gear from the Sears catalog, it came with instructions and you could get the tank filled at the propane & pressurized gas outfit a couple of towns over. My dad was interested in technology and got the gear to try it out, as he moved on to other interests and I talked him into letting me use the gear. He made sure I understood the instructions and Navy dive tables and I was a diver at 16. Most of my diving was solo as I didn't run into a lot of divers to buddy with. I was a good swimmer and snorkeler prior and the training included the admonition to treat SCUBA with the same respect as a loaded gun.

After diving off and mostly on for years I got a C card because showing up with a half dozen tanks and some diving stories and cash didn't get fills anymore and having someone else do it was inconvenient.

I have taken classes recently and been able to observe OW classes. Its different now and not the way I would do it but I'm and old SOB and as you can see by my training and diving I'm not likely to be used for a good example.

The emphasis I have noticed is on continuing education and knowing your limitations. Now I see that as expensive and stifling but it seems to work as the beaches are not littered with expired divers.

It may have been better then because we were tough and expected to be treated like crap but it won't work to support the industry that gives me the abundance of choice in reliable equipment I have now. After all, I've always been a pragmatist.

Bob
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I may be old but I’m not dead yet.

 

[DCBC]

Your description is a bit different than my experience. In 1963 you could order scuba gear from the Sears catalog, it came with instructions and you could get the tank filled at the propane & pressurized gas outfit a couple of towns over. My dad was interested in technology and got the gear to try it out, as he moved on to other interests and I talked him into letting me use the gear. He made sure I understood the instructions and Navy dive tables and I was a diver at 16. Most of my diving was solo as I didn't run into a lot of divers to buddy with. I was a good swimmer and snorkeler prior and the training included the admonition to treat SCUBA with the same respect as a loaded gun.

After diving off and mostly on for years I got a C card because showing up with a half dozen tanks and some diving stories and cash didn't get fills anymore and having someone else do it was inconvenient.

I have taken classes recently and been able to observe OW classes. Its different now and not the way I would do it but I'm and old SOB and as you can see by my training and diving I'm not likely to be used for a good example.

The emphasis I have noticed is on continuing education and knowing your limitations. Now I see that as expensive and stifling but it seems to work as the beaches are not littered with expired divers.

It may have been better then because we were tough and expected to be treated like crap but it won't work to support the industry that gives me the abundance of choice in reliable equipment I have now. After all, I've always been a pragmatist.

Thanks Bob. I suppose that's part of what SB is about; it provides a forum to share experiences. I learned to dive shortly after you did. I started my course through a Club (the Underwater Club of Canada in Toronto) at 11 years of age in 1964 and was certified the following year. Like you, I purchased much of my gear by mail, including a custom wet suit for $65 (from Lorianne Suits) that I outgrew the following year.

I was fortunate enough to have an instructor (Ben Davis) who participated in the first NAUI instructor program. He was tough but fair. My course was one night a week for approx. 7 months. For those who don't think that courses back then weren't efficient, they have never met Ben Davis. Part of the training (which required the time) was to develop the student physically and mentally to swim 2 lengths of a pool underwater (unaided), buddy-breathing off scuba for 2 lengths with another diver with a tank but no regulator and other such 'nonsense.' I was never asked to do push-ups wearing tanks, so I don't know where this idea came from (certainly not from NAUI).

Much of my indoctrination into diving (although laughable by today's standards) stood me in good stead when I entered the Navy diver training program 6 years later. The value of such training is not realized in the drills themselves, but in the ability to remain calm under any circumstance. This has been extremely valuable to me in the 39 years of military, commercial and recreational diving.

I understand that such training does not make economic sense to businesses whose clientele wants 'the quick and easy.' There is however no one that can disprove the value of such training should the diver experience an emergency.

What is 'ideal training' and what is 'commercially viable training' are two different things. There's no doubt in my mind what type of training is required to prepare a diver for a worst case scenario.

As I don't try to make anything from teaching and my students value the challenge and the education they receive over the quick and easy, I have no reason to change my approach. There are plenty of other instructors who are happy to address this market.

 

[Cave Diver]

First, no one class covers "everything."

If you've taken a typical OW class you should immediately take the AOW class because you're probably not ready to be on your own. Once you've finished AOW, you still need work to get up to the level I think you should be to be on your own.

If you've taken a comprehensive OW class, you are ready to be on your own and you shouldn't take a typical AOW class at all. You are already far beyond what that class can do for you. Go out, dive on your own for about 25 dives or so to get some reference points. Then take a true advanced class.

And that ladies and gentlemen was the exact point of this thread!

 

[limeyx]

Point taken, but surely someone who is a confident and competent swimmer, in the event of Murphy turning up, would be more likely to say "right, well it's all going a bit pear shaped, but I'm still in control, I can still swim and I'm not dead yet. So let's try to fix this problem."

The poor swimmer OTOH, is more likely to think "right, well it's all going a bit pear shaped, and I've never really liked swimming and there's water in my mouth and, oh my God, I could drown here oh shiiiiiiiii!!!"

I dont necessarily think that follows. My "swimming technique" when I am in scuba gear is nothing like that in trunks etc.

The issue with a "confident" person may be that they more easily get themselves in over their head, into a situation they dont have experience with.

Nothing can truly make up for decent experience in the environment, coupled with periodic high quality education IMO.

And by experience, I dont mean following someone else around, I really mean taking charge of your dive and diving at all levels and really trying to expand your knowledge skills and experience