Young divers VS Old divers

[thanksforallthefish]

Yes advances in technology generally lead to better equipment, but why should people adopt newer technology items if what they have works?

If it isn't broken dont fix it! Since when has newer always meant better?

 

[NudeDiver]

sorry nudediver, i generally agree with you, but totally disagree with your perspective of diving not being a sport. it is a sport, period. it is accepted as a sport worldwide, and always has been. if golf can be considered a sport, i fail to see why diving wouldn't be.

FWIW, I don't consider golf to be a sport either.

all joking aside, it depends on what type of diving you are doing. there is a lot of deep diving, and timed cavern diving that you must be in great shape to participate safely. also, generally the better shape you are in, the higher degree of safety you have in diving. this has been proven in many studies of dcs, and ean depth limits previously done by the navy. you generally do not see any fat, out of shape people diving on wolf and darwin islands in the galapagos, north sulawesi or raja ampat. the conditions are too rough, and out of shape people just aren't able to complete a full dive in these conditions.

Whether or not something is a sport goes a lot beyond needing to be in shape to participate.

My definition is simple. To be a sport, an activity must:

a). Involve a high degree of athleticism.
b). Involve competition (ideally, objectively scored).

In my view, SCUBA diving does not require either. While it may be true that for some dives, you must be "in shape" - that is not the same as athleticism. Think of it as the difference between going recreational jogging (not a sport) vs competing in the olympic marathon (sport).

Aside from all that - just because some people who participate in sub-types of a particular activity take it up a notch, doesn't mean that the general activity is a sport. For example, driving to and from work is not a sport. I don't think driving around in an oval at 150+ mph is a sport either, even if you package it up real nice and call it "NASCAR".

But hey, that's just my view. Others are free to disagree. They usually do

 

[porsc]

well nudediver, i didn't want to be adversarial, but here we go.

i don't quite understand how you can say that defining a sport goes well beyond having to be in shape, and then turn around and define sport as needing a higher degree of athleticism and involving competition, where in both of those you need to be in shape. how many people with a higher degree of athleticism do you know who are not in shape? how often to people sign up to compete in something, when they are totally out of shape. nope, you confused me a bit on this one my friend.

actually a sport is defined as: Sport: is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.

the problem with your argument is that we can't just make up whatever definition we want for words. words have official definitions, accepted worldwide and they are pretty concrete. under the official definition of the word sport, scuba diving definitely applies.

...and just to be totally contradictory, i don't consider golf as much of a sport either!!

 

[llqwyd]

i thought this was old vs young...at any rate, i think this (somewhat) sums it up -

old divers - good for teaching young divers respect
young divers - teach old divers how to use their new computers
lds - fill tanks, certify divers, provide necessary service
internet - great deals and keeps lds honest
sport - not to be taken so seriously its not fun
lifestyle - respect the dangers
old tech - regs have not really changed in years
new tech - some of the new computers and gadgets are way cool

in every vs. argument, you pretty much need both ingredients.

in short...can't we all get along?

 

[Sas]

Young divers VS. Old divers.

In this day and age, there seems to be a "war" going on in the dive industry. We have young divers on one side and the old divers on the other.

I have never noticed this at all, not one bit. I have made many friends of all ages via scuba diving.

My definition is simple. To be a sport, an activity must:

a). Involve a high degree of athleticism.
b). Involve competition (ideally, objectively scored).

Well you can define a word however you want. You might have trouble getting people to understand you but if that doesn't bother you knock yourself out

I define sport in the same way that Dictionary.com does and one of those definitions is "diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime." Diving meets this criteria for me.

I have this argument with my partner approximately about once a fortnight, whenever I happen to refer to diving as 'sport'. So I guess there are a few others that share your opinion NudeDiver, but perhaps not the majority. Maybe someone should make a Scubaboard poll

 

[BDSC]

well nudediver, i didn't want to be adversarial, but here we go.

i don't quite understand how you can say that defining a sport goes well beyond having to be in shape, and then turn around and define sport as needing a higher degree of athleticism and involving competition, where in both of those you need to be in shape. how many people with a higher degree of athleticism do you know who are not in shape? how often to people sign up to compete in something, when they are totally out of shape. nope, you confused me a bit on this one my friend.

actually a sport is defined as: Sport: is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.

the problem with your argument is that we can't just make up whatever definition we want for words. words have official definitions, accepted worldwide and they are pretty concrete. under the official definition of the word sport, scuba diving definitely applies.

...and just to be totally contradictory, i don't consider golf as much of a sport either!!

I didn't know there was an official definition for the word "sport". I've read several definitions and never ran across yours. But maybe that's the best one. I don't know. But what I do know is scuba diving is and never will be a sport. A great hobby for sure. It's just like golf, fishing, hunting, walking, checkers, parcheesi, quilting, and a host of other activities. All can be fun to do and they would all fall under the definition found in dictionary.com as a "diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime." But are they sports? No way.

I think one reason I see a lot of out of shape people participating in scuba diving is because you don't need to be in great shape or athletic to do it. It's really a pretty easy hobby to take up if you can swim and you don't even have to be a very good swimmer to do it.

But now to the old vs young. I have a great idea. Maybe we should make all divers past a certain age go before whatever agency certified them and do "checkout dives" to show they are still capable of diving without killing themselves or others. Kind of like what some places do with older drivers before they get their license renewed. And they would have to do the checkout dive under the guidance of a younger more skilled diver. If we're lucky, our government will set up an agency to oversee this activity.

 

[porsc]

well, bdsc, as i said earlier, i really don't want to be adversarial with anyone on here, but your statement shows a distinct prejudice against the older divers.

"Maybe we should make all divers past a certain age go before whatever agency certified them and do "checkout dives" to show they are still capable of diving without killing themselves or others. And they would have to do the checkout dive under the guidance of a younger more skilled diver."

so, allow me to take the side of the older diver for a minute.
i'm sorry, but after being in this industry since 1980, i have rarely seen young divers who are more skilled than the older, more experienced divers. skill comes from experience and practice. experience comes over time. plus physical skill is only part of the equation. diving is extremely mental as well, and the ability to maintain a calm demeanor, or to know what to do in the face of adversity is more important in most cases. again, this usually comes from the experience of being in these conditions time and time again.

but the fact is that age really doesn't have much to do with a diver being good or bad. i have dived with very good divers, and i have dived with divers who were terrible. and i can attest to the fact that both groups were comprised of divers from both young and old age groups. a good diver has experience in many different environments and conditions, a very good knowledge of dive theory and is in very good physical and mental shape. all of these have to do with safety, and all good divers are safe divers, first and foremost, regardless of age.

the official definition of any word, is how it is defined by an accredited dictionary. i am over seas, living as a marine biologist and professional dive instructor. and i have been making my living doing this for a very long time. so let me school you for a moment about diving. you spoke of only one kind of diving, the calm shallow water diving, which requires very little skill. however, there are numerous types of diving, where you have to be in great shape to dive, or you stand a good chance of not making it back. you never see out of shape people on those dives. there are a lot of countries around the world who don't have the laws america does.

so if you get a chance to travel around the world and dive in much tougher conditions, you will see a lot of the things that i am talking about. there are many sites around the world where people are denied a chance to dive specifically because they are out of shape, or because they don't have at least a rescue diver certificate. all diving doesn't take place in calm, shallow and clear water.

finally, as was said earlier, if you understand how to use words, the way a dictionary defines them, is fairly important to describe what something is or isn't. so when scuba diving falls under the definition of a word like sport, then it is a sport. there's no gray area there. what you were saying, is like me saying that stop sign's are purple. i can say it all day long, but it doesn't make it so. that is why we have dictionaries to define words, so we can use them properly.

 

[BDSC]

finally, as was said earlier, if you understand how to use words, the way a dictionary defines them, is fairly important to describe what something is or isn't. so when scuba diving falls under the definition of a word like sport, then it is a sport. there's no gray area there. what you were saying, is like me saying that stop sign's are purple. i can say it all day long, but it doesn't make it so. that is why we have dictionaries to define words, so we can use them properly.

The "Webster Illustrated Contemporary Dictionary" (1984 edition) has this as it's very first definition for the word "sport", 1. A diversion; pastime.

So like I said earlier, checkers, reading, quilting would all fall under this definition. Do you consider these sports?

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Divesero -I think some of your asumptions are flawed and you are over generalizing the groups you are trying to compare.

I am 44, have been certified for 24 years, and dove a few years prior to getting certified, so I probably fall in the older diver category who in your words:

"Then there are the old divers who stick to their brick and mortar dive shop with no interest whatsoever to adapt to the technology of the internet and the new ways of doing things."

In my case, I am a moderator here on the board, have been involved in the internet for at least 10 years, am comfortable with the internet and used to make money developing flight sim software. And, in my youth when I started diving I was not averse to buying scubagear through the mail from the big name mail order suppilers of their day Berry Scuba and Central Skin Divers (the pre-internet equivalents of Leisurepro.) That said I am an avid supporter of the brick and mortar dive shop not only for the service it porovides but also for the culture, social network and and support that surrounds a shop with a loyal following. That social network has traditionally been an excellent way to attract divers and to help them advance their skills as divers.

My thoughts are that my current affection for brick and mortar dive shops has to do with:

1. A little more disposable income (although I also bought used equipment from local dive shops in my starving college student years)

2. A LOT more wisdom and experience in seeing and understanding all the hidden downsides of internet marketing.

In fact, I'd argue that the lure of the internet to many propsective divers has hurt the industry in the long term as it leaves divers with little loyalty and no real LDS or local club based social network. The, as you call them "younger" internet divers get into diving but most no longer stay in dving. That makes you question whether spending $1000 on dive equipment on line and then not staying in the sport is really a better investment than spending $1500 in an LDS and staying involved in the sport longer.

As for adapting to new technology - I started diving with a Halogen can light, moved to an HID and recently changed to an LED. I am more than willing to adopt new technology when it offers a clear advantage over what I used in the past. I am not a fan of adopting something new or cutting edge just bedcause it is new or cutting edge. Good change is good, change just fore the sake of change is not.

I see lots of divers moving to rebreathers who lack the skill and experience to drive them but they have the money and the desiere to either look cool or be cutting edge. Even experienced divers are using them in a manner that gets them into situations they cannot survive. The result has been a growing number of cave diving fatalities that would have not occurred on open circuit, even with the extrra set up dives needed in some cases to make the same dive.

Being older, but more importantly having the experience and wisdom that comes with surviving long enough to be older, gives me a different perspective and does impact my decision to change the way I do things or embrace new technology. It has to prove to me that it brings something to the dive in greater proportion than the additional risks that it may also impose.

Basically, you could say the same thing about internet marketing.

Arguments abound and the lines may often get drawn on young/inexperienced versus old/experienced lines, but the old and experienced will always have the advantges of age and expereince - and of having once been young and inexperienced themselves. The young and inexperienced lack those advantages and unfortunately also lack the wisdom to understand that and consequently are more likely to point the fingure at someone else than to engage in any thoughtful introsapection about the big picture and whether the ideas they so ardently promote really make sense when all aspects of the situation are considered.

 

[Walter]

There's no war between young and old divers except in the minds of some. Diving brings people of different ages together, it doesn't push them apart.