What settings were off? You really need an IP gauge, knowing is better than trusting.
XL4+ Setup froze today
- Thread starter CanadaDan
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I wouldn't blame Apeks or doubt the quality of your gear too much, sometimes stuff happens.
Typically "cold water" regulators have a big change on the first stage, but I don't know if they have any huge differences on the second stages.
The first stage has to allow the water pressure to push against some internal surfaces. In non cold water regulators, some water is allowed inside--it's kept from the air you are breathing, but is on the other side of an Oring and piston, or diaphragm, allowing the regulator to keep the pressure at ~135psi over ambient. That presents a problem for cold water use, so cold water regulators keep the water further away with some medium in the middle that allows the pressure to still be pushed against the inside parts. For example, piston regulators can be filled with lubricant, but a diaphragm regulator like yours has an outside seal, then a plastic rod which transmits the pressure.
But second stages, as far as I know, don't have that large of a design change. They might focus on the material used and maybe a design like fins to allow heat exchange, but I think the internals are the same as any other.
I think that's ok because the pressure drop, which causes the risk of freezing, is a different level. Instead of regulating 3000psi to 135psi, it's regulating 135psi to 14psi.
I would not worry about reservicing everything, just confirm IP is set right and stable on the first stage, and you might have them put a new low pressure seat on the second stage. It is possible that the seat was defective, or that it was damaged during installation. For example, a slightly out of round sealing surface, and not pressing the purge button when making an adjustment, can cut a small surface in the seat that causes issues. It might also be as simple as the shop not having the machine to cycle the regulator before setting cracking pressure, and/or setting cracking pressure on the low end of the spec and now after a few dives, it is slightly out of spec.
See if they can confirm the current cracking pressure before doing any work on it, and then inspect the seat with a magnifying glass to look for imperfections, but I wouldn't be overly concerned that your regulators are wrong for the purpose based on this one incident.
Typically "cold water" regulators have a big change on the first stage, but I don't know if they have any huge differences on the second stages.
The first stage has to allow the water pressure to push against some internal surfaces. In non cold water regulators, some water is allowed inside--it's kept from the air you are breathing, but is on the other side of an Oring and piston, or diaphragm, allowing the regulator to keep the pressure at ~135psi over ambient. That presents a problem for cold water use, so cold water regulators keep the water further away with some medium in the middle that allows the pressure to still be pushed against the inside parts. For example, piston regulators can be filled with lubricant, but a diaphragm regulator like yours has an outside seal, then a plastic rod which transmits the pressure.
But second stages, as far as I know, don't have that large of a design change. They might focus on the material used and maybe a design like fins to allow heat exchange, but I think the internals are the same as any other.
I think that's ok because the pressure drop, which causes the risk of freezing, is a different level. Instead of regulating 3000psi to 135psi, it's regulating 135psi to 14psi.
I would not worry about reservicing everything, just confirm IP is set right and stable on the first stage, and you might have them put a new low pressure seat on the second stage. It is possible that the seat was defective, or that it was damaged during installation. For example, a slightly out of round sealing surface, and not pressing the purge button when making an adjustment, can cut a small surface in the seat that causes issues. It might also be as simple as the shop not having the machine to cycle the regulator before setting cracking pressure, and/or setting cracking pressure on the low end of the spec and now after a few dives, it is slightly out of spec.
See if they can confirm the current cracking pressure before doing any work on it, and then inspect the seat with a magnifying glass to look for imperfections, but I wouldn't be overly concerned that your regulators are wrong for the purpose based on this one incident.
OP
Owning this one... it was totally my own doing.
Upon servicing my tech found water in the first stage... which could only have really happened if I was careless and dripped into it while switching tanks between dives. I actually remember water spilling out of of my drysuit collar-ring when I bent over while changing tanks. It must have splashed into the uncoupled yoke valve on which I hadn't secured the dust cap. There was a time when I would blow out the filter every time I took the first stage off and put the cap in but I've gotten complacent and lazy about that lately apparently. I also need to be more cognizant of water on my gear.
Despite living in the middle of Canada I've never done any ice diving training and had not educated myself in the possible extra precautions and protocols of diving in sub 5c water. Diving this early in the season here requires more prep and caution with my primary & inflators than I anticipated.
On the plus side this was a great lesson learned with rather low risk attached. I will have this example to share with students (I'm finishing my DM now... goes to show a pro card doesn't mean you have anywhere near all the answers) and dive buddies forever.
Reg's are on the bench being dried, cleaned and serviced. I'll be back in the water next weekend.
Upon servicing my tech found water in the first stage... which could only have really happened if I was careless and dripped into it while switching tanks between dives. I actually remember water spilling out of of my drysuit collar-ring when I bent over while changing tanks. It must have splashed into the uncoupled yoke valve on which I hadn't secured the dust cap. There was a time when I would blow out the filter every time I took the first stage off and put the cap in but I've gotten complacent and lazy about that lately apparently. I also need to be more cognizant of water on my gear.
Despite living in the middle of Canada I've never done any ice diving training and had not educated myself in the possible extra precautions and protocols of diving in sub 5c water. Diving this early in the season here requires more prep and caution with my primary & inflators than I anticipated.
On the plus side this was a great lesson learned with rather low risk attached. I will have this example to share with students (I'm finishing my DM now... goes to show a pro card doesn't mean you have anywhere near all the answers) and dive buddies forever.
Reg's are on the bench being dried, cleaned and serviced. I'll be back in the water next weekend.
I don’t know if this is commun or not, or if it is due to freezing but my reg set has fallen into freeflow 3 dives in a row even though inspected and adjusted by a certified tech in between the events.
I was in 6’c water for 20, and 40 minutes. Lever in the - position.
I thought these regs were good cold water regs.
My tech said maybe it’s a known diaphragme issue or I should consider getting a better reg.
Anyone know anything about these regs having issues? In the mean time i will try to find the problem.
I was in 6’c water for 20, and 40 minutes. Lever in the - position.
I thought these regs were good cold water regs.
My tech said maybe it’s a known diaphragme issue or I should consider getting a better reg.
Anyone know anything about these regs having issues? In the mean time i will try to find the problem.
OP
Haven't heard about diaphragm issues. I'll look into that.
Personally I will refrain from diving these below 5c from now on, especially if I'm with students as a DMC. They are travel focused so not enough metal in the second stages to act as a heat sink. If everything is perfect including technique, they'll perform. They have to be bone dry internally and use has to be perfect and with ice diving techniques and precautions.
Personally I will refrain from diving these below 5c from now on, especially if I'm with students as a DMC. They are travel focused so not enough metal in the second stages to act as a heat sink. If everything is perfect including technique, they'll perform. They have to be bone dry internally and use has to be perfect and with ice diving techniques and precautions.
Even the most "elite," expensive, "cold water" regulators are capable of freezing and free-flowing, under specific conditions. I would most likely attribute the issue to user error and the introduction of moisture on the first stage and in the second stage. That would explain the free flows during the successive dives.
Six degrees Celsius is sufficiently cold for those issues to occur with most any make of regulator, if one is not careful during handling and testing, before hitting the water; and I saw my fair share of similar issues, among fellow divers in British Columbia, in years past. Once they failed during a first dive, they almost inevitably failed during successive dives.
At those low temperatures, treat your gear specifically, as though you were ice diving and observe those very particular precautions . . .
OP
I'm starting to think any training done in Canada needs to have an Ice technique component (I did my AOW here and there was nothing).
That would be an effective strategy.
Air already dramatically cools -- under Charles' Law -- upon pressurization, leaving the tank. Also, breathing heavily under those colder conditions, can cause ice to form, just from moisture in one's breath. Once my regulators get wet, they typically remain in the water, until the dive is over -- no exiting and reentering unless absolutely necessary.
At six degrees, we were either using environmentally-sealed regulators; or else, those fitted with rubber caps, filled with vodka, or other spirit, for the same purpose. Also, I only inhaled on the regulator, to ensure function, under warm conditions; or else, only after I first entered the water.
Other divers often used hot water in thermos bottles to keep first stages from freezing up between dives, in BC.
It's cold, in the Great White North -- but well worth the effort . . .
They were not successive dives on the same day.
They were almost 1 week apart and in between the tech had a look at them. So I would not expect it to be a cumulative effect.
My second free flow happened on a safety stop. I was in 6’c water until we passed the thermocline which was 11’c and that’s when it went wrong. I try and limite my drysuit and or bcd use to when I’m not breathing to avoid to much air demande. 11’c freezing is odd? Maybe I’m missing something.
Then, perhaps the same preventative or preparatory mistakes may have been made -- maybe "Bogarting" the regulator before entry? How cold was the surrounding air? I typically pressurize and test breathe my gear before I even leave the house or a dive shop; and only start actively breathing on the reg, while in the water.
A three-minute safety stop, in 11˚ C water, after forty or fifty minutes, at 8˚ C, is insufficient to warm a regulator. Brass is a great heat sink; but not that great. Chances are, the second stage was progressively icing up from the excessive work of breathing, during the entire dive; and was not just a sudden failure.
Years ago, I attempted to get my regulator (a Poseidon metal Cyklon 5000, at the time), fitted with a vodka-filled environmental cap, to freeze up in similarly cold water. It took some doing -- some huffing and puffing, until I was fairly light in the head --but I did manage to make it free-flow, in the shallows . . .
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