Would you really know what was going on if your computer went into Deco...?

[OneBrightGator]

Don,

I still don't think that's a good idea, I'm not even convinced that setting it for air and diving nitrox is a good idea either, also, there's no guarantees you'll remember what you computer looked like with a deco obligation if it happens again.

I think your best bet is to read your manual and review it if you haven't used it in a while, and use a plan mode if you have one.

Ben

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Anyway, where was I...?

Given these two possibilities:

(1) Wear a computer, and when someday - for whatever reasons, when it goes into Deco, try to remember what all the numbers and symbles mean, and do the best thing; or​

(2) With very good & calm diving conditions, with a buddy who has done this before and 1,000 lbs of air left to play with, surrounded by good support and even a hospital 1/2 mile away, stay down long enough to develope 2 or 3 minutes of Deco obligation, then do the Deco stops indicated.​

I think the latter has a lot of appeal, but - I don't think I could get an Instructor to help with it, becuase of the liabilities.

Comments on that one....?

Thanks, don

Only one. There is absolutely no excuse for unintentional decompression diving, so the issue should never arise. Don't push NDL's if you're not equipped and trained for it.

The fact that an instructor won't agree to do this with you should mean something. That's true whether you regard them as money grubbing or not.

If you are concerned that you will face an emergency that will push you over the limit (entangled, rescue, etc...), then get the equipment and take a course. You can learn the basics of deco diving in Tech 1, and I believe that you can probably find a GUE instructor who will travel if you can put together a group and are willing to pay. Alternatively, since you travel frequently, take a course when you're someplace where they offer it.

Anyone with half a brain can watch their computer and do what it says. The problem arises when your computer croaks or you exceed its parameters. There is more to deco diving than hanging around until you computer stops flashing. You need to be able to adjust your profile without your computer.

Finally, the entire concept of deco diving in a single tank makes me nervous. No matter how safe you think you are, diving a single tank in an overhead increases your risk. Deco is an overhead, and you're simply not properly equipped in a recreational rig. You don't want to be in a situation where a non-redundant equipment failure forces you to the surface with deco remaining. Its just not worth the risk.

In summary, Poo-poo occurs.

One other thought. Doing all your deco shallow is harder on your body and allows for more bubble formation. Most of the computers I've seen don't call for deep stops. They also allow an ascent rate that increases bubble formation.

FWIW, I'm not saying that this is true for every computer, just the one's I've seen (primarily Suunto's).

 

[NEWreckDiver]

Anyway, where was I...?

Given these two possibilities:

(1) Wear a computer, and when someday - for whatever reasons, when it goes into Deco, try to remember what all the numbers and symbles mean, and do the best thing; or​

(2) With very good & calm diving conditions, with a buddy who has done this before and 1,000 lbs of air left to play with, surrounded by good support and even a hospital 1/2 mile away, stay down long enough to develope 2 or 3 minutes of Deco obligation, then do the Deco stops indicated.​

I think the latter has a lot of appeal, but - I don't think I could get an Instructor to help with it, becuase of the liabilities.

Comments on that one....?

Thanks, don

I applaud you for this. This will be my only comment, but thanks for the post.

 

[Don Burke]

Not me.

I don't normally do any stops above 20 ft. When in doubt I would start stops deeper NOT shallower. Best figure things out way before getting to 10 ft. It's all over but the treatment at that point.

You do _only_ deep stops on a no-stop profile?

That sounds pretty odd. If I'm on a no-stop profile, it's a couple of minutes at 20 and then a bit longer at 10.

Stops deeper than 20 on a no-stop profile might actually do more harm than good.

On a planned decompression dive, it's a different story, but that wasn't the problem posed.

 

[LUBOLD8431]

One of the first times I used my Stinger, I forgot to put it into gauge mode (this was a planned deco dive). Thats when I saw what it does when it goes into Deco. I did have a timer with me also, and was diving a deco schedule (not the computer). This is also the last time I used the Stinger for deco dives. I now use a Vyper in gauge mode, which is alot easier to do than the Stinger.

 

[truva]

Last time I checked this thread, the topic was about not playing with deco and your dive computer.

Because some individuals think they have the market covered on diving knowledge and think everyone else is to stupid to learn something simple like minor decompression diving from time to time, or how to dive in current or low visibility or to 130-feet or so, and whatever. And some others called them on it and the fight was on….

I got upset at some of these ideas and suggested that those that think they know what’s best for everyone else were “Dive National Socialists”, and for that I do apologize. I will try to stick with the less offensive “ term “Joe Dive Masters” from now on.

Truva

 

[Genesis]

With most of my diving being in the gulf, holding a 10' stop is almost impossible to do accurately due to surge.

It is MUCH easier to hold a 20' stop in open water.

 

[Scuba]

To continue along the secondary topic in this thread:

I'd think that a log showing dives to 140 on EANx mixes, some with deco, and the majority of the dives in the last year past 100' (and a nice, large number of dives at that) would be good enough - especially when the log is all printed from the computer/bottom timer. Forging that, while possible, would be a real MFer - typing in depth/time at each 10 second increment BY HAND to create an entry out of whole cloth would be QUITE the project!

But its not.....

These guys simply don't care if I can dive. If they were, they would have suggested an alternative - like going with them one day on a shallow "reef dive" (there's a lot of them around there) so they can "check me out."

But nope - no card, no dive. End of discussion.

Its crystal-clear what's going on here.

Crystal clear - indeed. This is where the facts debunk the claims.

I don't want to repeat all Genesis has said on this topic, but different businesses can rally around pretended claims such as consumer safety and lower costs when the primary hidden intent is self interest. For example: training agencies issue cards for consumer safety reasons. Now dive guides and boats only accept these card carrying "safer divers" out of concern for consumer safety and to reduce their business liability - since insurance companies provide lower rates for those who only cater to the card carrying "safer divers", or outright refuse to insure non card carrying divers and those who cater to them. Shops refuse to sell air fills to divers. They only sell it to "safer card carrying divers". Now the demand for getting a card increases and all the business entities composing the system happily take their turn profiting from the cycle. In a nutshell, many complex forces at work here which led to where the system is.

Virtuous or viscious? Probably a little bit of both.

Did all these business interests get together in a good old fashion smoke filled room to concoct this conspiracy? Probably not. No need to. But, businesses will work for their self interests. When some of these interests turn out to be of mutual benefit, they will work together and/or seperately towards the same goal.

What we have here is a convergence of business interests coalescing around a point resulting in the creation of far reaching non-governmental regulation. If down the road it becomes in the interests of these entities to further codify and enhance these regulations under the protection of governmental regulation - they will lobby for it. (Ideally they want to catch all the fish. Right now, some, like Genesis and his boat full buddies, all solo divers naturally, "joke" get through the nets) It will be sold in the name of the consumer - safety, jobs, lower costs, etc.

It should be noted that this system, despite some shortfalls, has opened up diving to a greater number of people who otherwise would not partake in it - by making it more accessible, affordable, and yes - relatively safe.

Many here, including myself, often bemoan the quality of training out there and what some of these poorly trained divers do. Yes, it could be better. Should - in my opinion. But lets also look at a likely alternative. Much fewer, much more expensive training resulting in truly better safer divers. Some think this is at it should be. However, lets not forget there would also be a greater number of divers learning on their own. If some of the above mentioned poorly trained divers are wreckless now, imaging them with no formal training. Poor training is better than poorer training. Obviously the intent should be to raise the bar for all.

Yet, the system implemented can not stand up to some of the false claims used to sell it to the public. Case in point - Genesis's example above.

Regulations are usually not all bad or all good. They contain qualities of both. What is wrong is the intent to mislead and deceive. This leads to a more corrupt system, less robust regulation as to intent. Thus, the "less safe card carrying diver" gets to dive while the safer non-card carrying diver is not allowed to dive.

 

[grazie42]

Actually most insurance companies where I live (in Sweden) will "happily" ensure uncertified divers...they´ve set the limit at AOW depth limit and OW and don´t care if you´re certified or not (nor if you´re certified to go deeper). They just decided that diving is comparable to rockclimbing, kajaking, skiing and stuff like that...

Dive centers and boat operators still demand certs though so unless you buy your own compressor and boat (or do shore dives) you still have to buy "access"/certs...
We may not like this (I certainly don´t) but for me, right now, the costs for diving with certs is still less than diving without and (since I´ve already invested in this path) it will continue to be...

 

[MikeFerrara]

You do _only_ deep stops on a no-stop profile?

That sounds pretty odd. If I'm on a no-stop profile, it's a couple of minutes at 20 and then a bit longer at 10.

Stops deeper than 20 on a no-stop profile might actually do more harm than good.

On a planned decompression dive, it's a different story, but that wasn't the problem posed.

On a no-stop profile I do short stops at 40, 30 and 20. Then I do a slow ascent from there. How slow depends on the profile. The fastest ascent I normally use from 20 ft is 6 ft per minute. On more extreme profiles I use 2 ft/minute.

Many like and teach 30, 20 and 10 even for a no-stop dive which is fine. GUE and now IANTD teach this even for no-stop dives in place of the conventional 15 ft safety stop.

The point here is 10 ft is too shallow to start stops. If you have a decompression obligation on a planned no stop dive there's NO way I would ascend to 10 ft. Run it on some software. If you have a decompression obligation you will be offgassing at 30 or 40 ft and at a much freindlier gradient than at 10 ft.

Run it on some software yourself but I can't imagine a profile where you would do any harm by sitting at 30 ft.


Get a copy of a software like GAP that shows tissue loading and uses gradient factors and see what you're doing to yourself. Compare the profile that your computer gives to a software like V-planner (VPM)

You'll see that some of the dives that recreational divers are doing as no-stop dives will have manditory stops and stops will start deeper than 10 ft.

IMO, you should learn some of this stuff to be able to make reasonably informed decisions before you ever consider pushing your computer into decompression.

If divers want to practice something, like dandy don, practice accurate stops at 30, 20 and 10 on all dives. Oh, without the use of a line of course. Practice a slow controled ascent from 20 ft. Do the ascent as a team with divers facing each other in a star formation. Now do it with one team member missing or replacing a mask. Practice making sure that you have enough gas to make an ascent like this while sharing air. Plan all your dive accordingly. I don't think any one should dive without some of these skills but incurring a mandatory decompression obligation without the planning skills and the ability to control the last part of the dive is just nuts.

Also learn something about decompression...and I don't mean how to use a table. You may just decide like I have that you don't want to decompress the way most of these computers would have you do it ESPECIALLY when you're on vacation doing 4 or 5 dives per day. IMO, the time to learn about decompression is before you get compressed.

Those computers aren't doing anywhere near as much for you as you think.