Would you really know what was going on if your computer went into Deco...?

[NEWreckDiver]

There are multiple ways to learn something - buying training is not the only way, and it may not even be the most effective method.

One of the reasons for this is that by definition if you are buying training you don't know enough about the subject to evaluate the prowess of your would-be-instructor. Thus, you are always doing what amounts to a "trust me" - and when it comes to things like decompression, you are betting your life (or at least a significant amount of pain and expense) that you're right in your evaluation.

The necessary understanding of the physiology, procedures, etc out there to do decompression diving is quite attainable without playing "trust me."

Yes, but at this level of diving, getting your training from anything other than a qualified instructor can cost you a lot as well. Now a qualified instructor can be a hard thing to find, but worth the trouble. I don't care what agency he trains for, but find an instructor.

You can't learn this from just reading a book or extrapolating information from the Internet. This is my point. There are to many things that can go wrong and you need to know how to deal with them all.

 

[Genesis]

Yes, but at this level of diving, getting your training from anything other than a qualified instructor can cost you a lot as well. Now a qualified instructor can be a hard thing to find, but worth the trouble. I don't care what agency he trains for, but find an instructor.

The problem is that you have just set forth an impossible task. If I know what I need to ask, I don't need the training or the instructor, as what I really need is drill time (if that), not instruction.

If I don't know what I need to ask, I do need the training, but now I'm not qualified to judge if the person I'm intending to employ is qualified to teach me!

You can't learn this from just reading a book or extrapolating information from the Internet. This is my point. There are to many things that can go wrong and you need to know how to deal with them all.

Actually, there are a finite number of things that can go wrong, and you can indeed learn what they are and drill on them without formal instruction.

I am not advocating diving without knowledge. I am advocating that one acquire that knowledge by whatever means work best for each individual diver.

I am also pointing out the futility in trying to evaluate a potential instructor for this level of training when one doesn't know what one doesn't know. You are, in that situation, inherently playing "trust me" - at a level where being wrong can get you badly hurt or killed quite easily.

 

[NEWreckDiver]

Well I do agree that you need to dive with knowledge. I am just not sure I buy your argument that you can get this knowledge without an instructor. If you don't know what you don't know, how else can you get this knowledge?

Yes you need to eliminate the trust me factor. There are ways to check out an instructor other than just taking his word for it that he knows what he is doing. Get recommendations from other divers. It just sounds like you are recommending that one doesn’t need an instructor for this level of diving. I hope that I am reading this wrong. My argument is that one shouldn’t even consider this level of diving without an instructor.

 

[Genesis]

Well I do agree that you need to dive with knowledge. I am just not sure I buy your argument that you can get this knowledge without an instructor. If you don't know what you don't know, how else can you get this knowledge?

You can endeavor to learn. Instructors are not the only way to learn. Indeed, the physiological information you need IS available in written form, from people who know more than any of your instructors - they didn't do an IDC, they did eight years of college and have PhD after their names.

I will believe them (if they can produce the studies and data to back up their claims) before I believe someone who did a week's IDC and has some plastic card.

Yes you need to eliminate the trust me factor. There are ways to check out an instructor other than just taking his word for it that he knows what he is doing. Get recommendations from other divers. It just sounds like you are recommending that one doesn’t need an instructor for this level of diving. I hope that I am reading this wrong. My argument is that one shouldn’t even consider this level of diving without an instructor.

Why not?

An "instructor" is not a degreed professional. More importantly, he/she has not been tested by any independant body, unlike a medical doctor, engineer or other licensed professional. Indeed, an electrician has more in the way of formal verification of their knowledge than your scuba instructor - even the biggest, baddest, most-"trusted" instructor from any agency. ALL you ever have with these folks is anecdotal evidence of their competence!

Yet you propose to allow this person to do the same effective thing as placing you under anaesthesia and cut 'ya up - because if he/she screws up before you know what you need to know, you will wind up just as crippled - or dead - as an unlicensed MD will leave you.

Even worse, to get this "instruction" you must sign away your right to sue said "professional", or he/she won't teach you at all. This is not something you have to do when you go under the knife at the local hospital - you have to sign a consent form, but nowhere does it claim to release negligent acts.

Yet all scuba instructors demand you do that.

There is no way to get rid of the "trust me" factor, except to become informed as to what you're about to undertake to the best of your ability. The paradox of this is that if you become sufficiently educated to remove the "trust me" factor, what you're now doing is actually just buying a card - you've already learned what you needed instruction on!

 

[truva]

There, I said it, I believe that I can find out everything I need to know in order to do planned decompression diving with or without my computer, without taking some class.

I have been doing this at times for the last 10 years or so, what’s the big deal?

Now you want to ask if I would do a profile that would result in having to hold at depth for 45 minutes or more. NO, I do not do that kind of diving. But I believe that the information is out there and that I would do it safely if I chose to engage in this kind of activity.

About the only thing where I would seek training is cave diving, I have been spelunking above water and I dang sure would want someone that’d been there to talk to while learning. But that is just absolutely crazy so that will never come up for me.

Truva

 

[NEWreckDiver]

Genesis, I guess I will never understand this.

 

[Genesis]

Genesis, I guess I will never understand this.

What doesn't make sense?

If an instructor is essential - indeed, if they are, by definition, so essential that they are the difference between doing it and living, and doing it and dying - then why can't I find one who will actually take responsibility for what he/she is teaching me?

Since I cannot have even the protections against negligent acts that I would have if I hired an electrician to fix a light switch, and the risks are much higher in undertaking technical diving than fixing light switches, it seems to me that one is just plain foolish to undertake such an endeavor without learning the diving equivalent of safe household wiring practices on their own, before undertaking such a thing.

Once one has learned that material, they now can fix their own light switch, and indeed it is safer for them to do so than to call the electrician, since nobody cares more than you do that it be done right - after all, its your finger that is going to reach out and turn it on!

This is the inherent paradox in all scuba training; its bad at the open water level, but frankly, "breathe continuously" and "ascend slowly" is enough, by and large, within the NSLs to insure that you get back to the surface intact nearly all of the time. Therefore, while "trust me" is bad at the OW level, its fairly unlikely you'll cack yourself while OW diving even without any instruction at all - so the "trust" is nowhere near as complete.

When one is talking about mandatory decompression diving, or indeed any diving with a ceiling overhead (penetration of any kind - wreck or cave, or mandatory decompression) those two basic rules don't cover it any more.

As such "trust me" is, IMHO, irresponsible, and the paradox becomes clear.

In order to not have to play "trust me", I must first learn the material.

But once one learns the material well enough that one is no longer playing "trust me", by definition you have learned what is necessary to survive - ergo, you no longer need the instructor!

The amusing thing is that NetDoc has said that one of his cardinal rules for divers is "no trust me dives."

Yet such a cardinal rule eschews the need for instructors for advanced diving, arguing instead for learning from persons with actual, peer-reviewed credentials, and progressively verifying one's grasp of the knowledge and mastery of the necessary skills in reasonably safe environments - where the risks of being wrong are not terribly likely to lead to serious injury or death - before using them in the more dangerous ones where the likely consequence of a screw-up is assumption of room temperature.

None of this requires someone who's only verifyable credential is a plastic card that came from a week-long ITC, and indeed, all of it mandates that one use much more reliable sources, especially since the plastic-card-carrying wonder is insisting that you give up your right to come after him if it turns out that he doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[Scuba]

But once one learns the material well enough that one is no longer playing "trust me", by definition you have learned what is necessary to survive - ergo, you no longer need the instructor!

While I agree that "some" people can learn very well on their own, some people need someone to provide further explanation to truly comprehend the subject matter.

However, I disagree with the above statement. Just because you know what is necessary to be done does not mean that you will be able to execute what needs to be done.

One may lack the motor skills necessary that come with practice.

One may lack the psychological discipline and make up needed to execute. Again, practice helps.

Self awareness is one of the most difficult thing to do, specially while practicing a new, probably stressful activity. Assistance beyond self capacity is simply impossible by oneself.

In my opinion, this is where a good instructor can be of aid to anyone, irrespective of the greater knowledge the student may posses. By providing supervision and feedback, the instructor can help the student see what he may not be aware of and can offer a helping hand if necessary. A good instructor provides a faster and safer learning environment

Granted, an instructor is not the only one who can provide this type of supervision, many good non instructor divers could.

 

[MikeFerrara]

A reasonably safe way to practice short deco times is to use an appropriate nitrox fill while running your computer in air mode. This way you can run up several minutes of deco time on the computer while remaining within safe NDLs. You should use tables or a second computer to confirm your profile is safe.

Just a start...
A more reasonable way to do it is to learn to make ascents and descents with presice control while managing other taske or problems at the same time. Can you precisely control depth and maintain buddy contact and replace a mask?

Learn the planning and responses to problems like a lost decompression gas or malfunctioning reg on a decompression gas and responding to problems like ommited stops (as in say you took an injured diver up)

Now that you can execute a schedule all you need to know is how to figure out what it should be.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You can endeavor to learn. Instructors are not the only way to learn. Indeed, the physiological information you need IS available in written form, from people who know more than any of your instructors - they didn't do an IDC, they did eight years of college and have PhD after their names.

That's not what the instructor is for. The knowledge you gain about specific decompression models an physiology in technical training you'll get from your own reading. The instructor will help you learn to apply it in the water. They'll show you tricks and methods that make it easier that aren't in any book and when you screw up he'll help you survive it.

An "instructor" is not a degreed professional. More importantly, he/she has not been tested by any independant body, unlike a medical doctor, engineer or other licensed professional. Indeed, an electrician has more in the way of formal verification of their knowledge than your scuba instructor - even the biggest, baddest, most-"trusted" instructor from any agency. ALL you ever have with these folks is anecdotal evidence of their competence!

Well, I have a degree and work with lots of people who have lots of degrees and I can tell what they mean...NOTHING absolutely NOTHING. We need to get away from dependance on degrees and go back to choosing people who has performed in the field where it counts.

A good technical diver or instructor may not have a degree but they have something far more telling. They have the respect of their peers gained over the course of hundreds of technical dives in the most challanging environments on the planet that are covered with water.

Part of the reason divers are ill prepared to pich a tech instructor is that they don't learn the basics while they're recreational diving. At this stage it should be easy to pick an instructor.

However you can pick an instructor at this level. First off find some one who is respected by his peers. Any one who has any business teaching technical diving will be known in the technical diving community. Hint...if you're in the midwest and you find an instructor who isn't known around the Great Lake wreck diving circles or around the Missouri caves pass him up. BTW they are out there.

Once you find one good technical instructor the rest is pretty easy. My first tech instructor was a non-diving slob but I eventually LUCKED into a good one. He recommended my cave instructor who recommended my advanced trimix instructor. Also by this point in your career you should have developed something of a phylosophy and be able to pick out like thinking instructors. My advanced trimix instructor was recommended to me and chosen based on very specific attributes because at this point I can't dive with just any instructor.

Even worse, to get this "instruction" you must sign away your right to sue said "professional", or he/she won't teach you at all. This is not something you have to do when you go under the knife at the local hospital - you have to sign a consent form, but nowhere does it claim to release negligent acts.

Yet all scuba instructors demand you do that.

At this stage this shouldn't bother you. You are agreeing to make your own decisions and be responsible for them. You don't have to take part in technical diving or diving period for that matter.

There is no way to get rid of the "trust me" factor, except to become informed as to what you're about to undertake to the best of your ability. The paradox of this is that if you become sufficiently educated to remove the "trust me" factor, what you're now doing is actually just buying a card - you've already learned what you needed instruction on!

No. The riskiest part of your diving education is your OW course.

The technical instructor shortens the learning curve and adds some foresight to the process by giving you the benefit of their experience. You can get all the nuts and bolts from a book but there's only one way to get the experience and it doesn't matter what you know until you've done it.

Just read some of the total nonsense in this thread. It looks to me like there are MANY people in dire need of a good instructor.

After looking through this thread I'm having trouble figuring out how most of us are still alive to talk about it.