Would you let my wife dive?

[drrich2]

RJP:

My use of 'culture' as a term wasn't a particularly good one; I just couldn't come up with something better. It's not a conspiracy type thing; but a customer runs into the same issues at most any professional dive charter operation. That's what I meant.

As for how your daughter's generation reacts to a loss of liberty, indifferent because they 'never knew any better,' so to speak, that is a good point, and a very chilling one that should serve as a wake up call to a lot of people.

As far as requiring further certification for more demanding dives beyond OW, most OW divers have a clear path to go get that training, cert. & experience. Someone excluded due to a disclosed medical history may not have that option. So it's not the same thing.

...suppose you went to Cozumel and were assigned an insta-buddy for a challenging drift dive to 130ft including a swim-through at the deepest point of the dive. Your insta-buddy - who just finished his OW course yesterday - told you and the op that he had 500 dives because he didn't want to be discriminated against. Would that be OK with you?

No, and again, he has the option to go get that training.

Richard.

 

[Duke Dive Medicine]

That's the straight truth. I suspect one issue driving peoples' decision making is that, in matters with high stakes (e.g.: lawsuit, death), you can usually find a way that someone's actions could affect other people, thus providing a rationale to curtail an individual's rights. By way of analogy, consider a solo rock climber who is not taking a course or on a professional guided activity. He just buys gear off the internet, heads out to a mountainous area, and climbs. He may or may not be trained & a seasoned climber; let's just say he's knowledgable about the risks involved and making an informed decision. Even if his undertaking is one that many climbers would deem just pushing the risk envelope a bit, I don't think most people would try to coerce him into not climbing.

But if he dies, will that create disruption at his workplace, which just lost an employee without required (e.g.: 30 day) notice? Did his wife just lose a husband, and get additionally traumatized identifying the mangled body at the morgue? Did his 2 kids get traumatized hearing that Dad is never coming home?

True that, and also the helicopter pilot who has to fly in tricky winds and the guy dangling from the winch who are putting themselves at considerable risk to recover him not knowing whether he's dead or alive, or the (trained) bystanders who see him fall and put themselves at risk to try to get to him.

Or, you and I deciding to exceed the safe limit of our bottom mix in the hopes of rescuing the seizing epileptic with cardiomyopathy, ASD and pulmonary blebs who lied on a diving questionnaire and is now sinking down the wall

Best regards,
DDM

 

[RJP]

As for how your daughter's generation reacts to a loss of liberty, indifferent because they 'never knew any better,' so to speak, that is a good point, and a very chilling one that should serve as a wake up call to a lot of people.

You've got a real problem with seatbelts, huh? (Wake-up calls notwithstanding, I think you'll find your march on Washington to protest the unjust loss of freedoms around seatbelt laws will be sparsely attended.)

Yet you've also given up your liberty to drive 100mph down a highway, no? Why doesn't that seem to bother you?

Are you equally bothered by having lost the liberty to own slaves? How about, as a male, having lost the ability to retain voting as a male-only right?

---------- Post added December 29th, 2014 at 01:13 PM ----------

No, and again, he has the option to go get that training.

Not before this afternoon's dive, he doesn't.

But seriously, the person with a medical contraindication to diving has the option to snorkel. So why is it OK for them to lie about their background in order to dive... but not your insta-buddy?

 

[Diver0001]

This seems to always be a controversial topic in the diving community, however if you were a shop owner or DM would you let my wife dive in this situation?

She has had only one seizure 16 years ago, but is still on medication. Her doctor has signed off for her to be able to dive. We are going on a trip soon and she expressed interest in doing a discovery dive to see if it's something she would be interested in. If you were the shop owner, would you allow her to dive at shallow depths?

As an instructor I am not a doctor. If the doctor signs off then I would be inclined to accept her.

The thing that gives me alarm bells is that she's still on medication after 16 years. Before I did much with her that went beyond the swimming pool stage, I would want to hear from the doctor why this medication was necessary and why, after 1 seizure 16 years ago, it was necessary to keep the patient (presumably) on this medication for the rest of their life.

As I said, I'm not a doctor, but something about keeping a person on medication for 16 years with no symptoms makes me think that there is a risk factor that I need to fully understand.

R..

 

[drrich2]

You've got a real problem with seatbelts, huh?

I wear them diligently for reasons of my own. I do resent the intrusion into our liberty of the law in the matter.

(Wake-up calls notwithstanding, I think you'll find your march on Washington to protest the unjust loss of freedoms around seatbelt laws will be sparsely attended.)

Yes, and that's how you strip people of their liberty; a little bit at a time so they aren't willing to fight for it. Our democracy is billed as 'by the people, for the people,' but if the people are asleep at the wheel, well...

Yet you've also given up your liberty to drive 100mph down a highway, no? Why doesn't that seem to bother you?

Only if you put me way out in the desert where I can see so far in all directions as to insure I will not pose a significant danger to anyone else.

I thought earlier I saw on some post the example of slavery put out as one where my liberty is limited by not being able to own slaves, obviously rooted in the 'my rights end where your nose begins' philosophy, which also covers my not having a right to commit murder, etc…

Yes, our individual liberties are curtailed to some extent when our actions have a reasonable probability of having a substantial deleterious impact on others without their consent. Hence some of your objections, and examples Duke Dive Medicine gave.

My concern is that, take that principle to an extreme in a society where most all of us have links to other people, and other people can potentially be impacted by our choices indirectly, and how much liberty is left for anybody?

Reminds me that people often tout 'The 1st Amendment,' but I rarely hear anybody push the one about the freedom of the pursuit of happiness. In a practical sense in the modern world, I wonder what that so-called right even means?

On a practical note, if people believe their rights (at least as they perceive them; perhaps some would rather I call them goals or desires) will be respected and considered important, and that others will work with them to mitigate concerns rather than obstruct them outright, more people are apt to be honest on these disclosure forms.

But seriously, the person with a medical contraindication to diving has the option to snorkel. So why is it OK for them to lie about their background in order to dive... but not your insta-buddy?

It wouldn't bother me a great deal if someone did this (lied about experience to go on a dive buddies up with me), long as he didn't tell me & incriminate me. It would annoy me if my dive were cut short because he blew through his gas too fast. I would consider him foolish, but he might not care too much what I thought of him. I'm not saying I'd like it; just that I wouldn't throw a screaming fit when I found out later.

Okay, my turn for an example. This woman with a very remote history of one seizure had an interest in diving. If she lied on the form, seized & sank unconscious underwater (seems unlikely, but there is some possibility though we don't have a % likelihood), this could in theory jeopardize the interests of a buddy and guide who might notice & go after her.

On the other hand, even when a cave diver is trained, cave diving poses some substantial risks from what I understand. I wonder what the % chance of fatality on the average cave is? And how it would compare to this woman's risk of death? Our cave diver probably didn't lie on any form, there was no guide, and he might be diving solo, but if he doesn't make it back, a number of divers may be put in jeopardy going after his body later. As was the case when that guy Ben disappeared & was thought to be in the cave at Vortex Spring.

Since any cave diver runs the risk of putting body recovery divers in danger if he doesn't come back, seems a violation of their rights/interests for even properly trained & certified cave divers to dive caves. Except we don't think that.

My point: if we do not tolerate any potential impingement on the liberty of others in the exercise of our own, we will have little if any liberty.

I see the main contraindication of lying on the form as a moral objection to lying.

Richard.

 

[boulderjohn]

Reminds me that people often tout 'The 1st Amendment,' but I rarely hear anybody push the one about the freedom of the pursuit of happiness. In a practical sense in the modern world, I wonder what that so-called right even means?

The 1st amendment is part of the constitution, in the Bill of Rights, which defines the legal rights of all citizens. It has been the basis of many legal decisions over the centuries. The pursuit of happiness is not a right named in the constitution. It is a rhetorical phrase used to inspire revolution in the Declaration of Independence. Because it is not a legal right of the citizenry, it has never been the basis for court decisions and is thus undefined.

On the other hand, even when a cave diver is trained, cave diving poses some substantial risks from what I understand. I wonder what the % chance of fatality on the average cave is? And how it would compare to this woman's risk of death? Our cave diver probably didn't lie on any form, there was no guide, and he might be diving solo, but if he doesn't make it back, a number of divers may be put in jeopardy going after his body later. As was the case when that guy Ben disappeared & was thought to be in the cave at Vortex Spring.

Ben was not trained for cave diving in any way. He was not supposed to be in that cave. We do not, in fact, know that he was in that cave or if he is even dead. The death of a properly trained and certified cave diver is extremely rare. It is commonly said, in fact, that Parker Turner is the only trained cave diver to die in a cave without intentionally violating the rules of his training (he was a cave-in victim), but there have actually been a handful of others who made errors that were not intentional. I investigate some cave incidents and write reports on them. In one fatality I investigated recently, the diver dived despite a medical condition that would have disqualified her had she been taking a class that required a medical form. She did not disclose it to her dive buddies, probably because she knew they would not do the dive with her if they knew. When she died, her family sued the other divers for not taking proper care of her. The results were pretty ugly.

 

[Tony387]

I thought this was the Dive Medicine forum. What does this anti-government diatribe have to do with the OP's question?

 

[lamarpaulski]

Do you let her drive an automobile ?

 

[RJP]

Do you let her drive an automobile ?

And if so... does she wear a seatbelt?

:d

 

[Octopusprime]

If you cannot find a physician with that expertise locally, call DAN and ask them. This isn't something you should poll people on the Internet for.

DAN is great resource... When I first started diving I had concerns about my ears... Found me an ear nose and throat locally. Last year I started grinding my treaty after diving... DAN found me a dentist that knew diving...turns out it was pinched nerve in neck and one adjustment at the chirp fixed the grinding...