Would you dive with this op?

[cvchief]

What's PADI going to do in regard to a dive shop taking a diver to a different dive site than they requested, unless doing so broke one of PADI rules. If they took the diver on a 160 ft deep dive I might see it, but what exactly did they do that breaks one of PADI's rules? They are just a crappy run dive operation that caters to clientele with little requirements other than getting wet and seeing some fish.

Well, I never said PADI cared if they are a crappy dive op. I dunno. I just said it warranted him complaining.

---------- Post added April 26th, 2014 at 10:33 PM ----------

I do not agree with the notion that Cozumel is a bad dive destination for newly certified divers.

That is not my notion either. We made dive 5 in Coz. (After the 4 checkout OW dives.) However, I made the right choice in Ops and my missus went from not too sure about the diving thing to loving it. The nature of diving in Cozumel never entered into impeding that progress.

 

[kcjon]

I've dove with Pro dive out of the allegro twice in the last two years and two smaller shops also. While i enjoyed my time with Deep Exposure and Blue Angel more, i never felt anything Pro dive did was unsafe. In fact both times ive been with them they required/requested a shallower reef dive before they would take you to the walls. The dms were young internationals but they were all instructors and did a fine job. The downside to Pro Dive Mexico was the tight schedule, limited bottom times and repeated sites. YMMV

 

[Mike]

I don't think anyone is implying they are unsafe to dive with, unless I missed it.

This is enough to keep certain people away:

The downside to Pro Dive Mexico was the tight schedule, limited bottom times and repeated sites. YMMV

I do consider Cozumel not the ideal location for anyone's first open water dives. There are certainly other vacation destinations that don't combine drift diving and deeper profiles as the de rigueur of the location. While those conditions can of course be competently dealt with, they certainly add to the task loading and we've all seen the newbie disaster divers making their best attempts to deal with them to different levels of success. Roatan would certainly be much further up the list of easiest places for a newbie to dive than Cozumel.

 

[Hatul]

The real concern I take from the OP's story is the number of divers who take their basic open water training, pass, get their C-card and then can't do something as basic as determining their own weighting requirements or having the good sense to SLOWLY vent their BC at the surface to control their rate of descent. I read so many stories here on Scubaboard and elsewhere where so-called certified divers seem to have absolutely no sense of self-reliance or confidence and assume that a DM, whose credentials are completely unknown (in a lot of cases although not all) will take complete care of them. What are we teaching in open-water classes? If you arrive at a dive site that rattles your confidence you thumb the dive....I don't care where you are or how much you paid to be there. You don't drop in hoping things will work out or the DM will come to the rescue. I am not sure that training agencies are to blame or that standards are too low but I have been on far too many boats with divers I wouldn't snorkel with much less dive a wall.

That was my thinking as well. Especially for a novice diver, you should do a checkout beach dive first to get familiar with the water, check your gear and get your weighting sorted out before getting on a boat.

Then when you jump in the water off the boat you don't dump all your air to descend. You should stay close to neutral in buoyancy at all times, at least in recreational dives. That's how fish swim; they don't drop like a rock.

 

[Qnape]

I do consider Cozumel not the ideal location for anyone's first open water dives. There are certainly other vacation destinations that don't combine drift diving and deeper profiles as the de rigueur of the location. While those conditions can of course be competently dealt with, they certainly add to the task loading and we've all seen the newbie disaster divers making their best attempts to deal with them to different levels of success. Roatan would certainly be much further up the list of easiest places for a newbie to dive than Cozumel.

It is certainly true that there are easier destinations for a new diver's first open water dives. At the same time, there can be many other considerations in making that destination determination other than placid conditions. Our LDS and OW instructor actually discussed the conditions in Coz specifically in our classes as many from NJ consider Cozumel for that first trip (and our LDS runs a trip there every year drawing several of their new divers each time). He felt Cozumel was a good example to ilustrate the why divers should obtain instruction, advice or guidance from persons familar with the specific desired diving location for any dive. Basically, our instructor said he recommends Cozumel or not to new divers based upon his opinion of whether they will take into account the additional factors when planning the trip. For some he would suggest a place with easier conditions, and for some he recommends golf. For those inclined to prepare, practice and seek advice or especially additional instruction he feels it is better than many destinations because of the wide availablility of local instruction and private dive masters.

 

[Mossman]

I do consider Cozumel not the ideal location for anyone's first open water dives. There are certainly other vacation destinations that don't combine drift diving and deeper profiles as the de rigueur of the location. While those conditions can of course be competently dealt with, they certainly add to the task loading and we've all seen the newbie disaster divers making their best attempts to deal with them to different levels of success. Roatan would certainly be much further up the list of easiest places for a newbie to dive than Cozumel.

It's a lot for the beginner to take on. Not just deeper profiles, but bottomless walls at many sites. Not just drift diving, but occasionally some really fast currents and even down currents. Lots of boat traffic on the surface, yet strong currents can make it easier to get separate from the guide and his or her DSMB. And lately, killer baby sharks!

You say Roatan, I say Bonaire. Super slow currents, if any. Most of the walls tend to bottom out at a relatively safe depth. The easiest possible introduction to independent diving.

Cozumel could be great for beginners that charter a boat and stick to the shallow stuff, what most of us usually only do as second dives. But brand new divers traveling there for their first post-cert dives, getting on a mixed boat with other divers that want deep walls, can easily be exposed to very challenging conditions.

My one down current experience is a case in point. I was with a large dive shop group that filled two DP 12-packs. My boat was the "experienced" boat. My buddy was the only one with less than a hundred dives, she had around 50 at the time, half Caribbean (Cuba, Grand Cayman) and half SoCal. She had experienced currents and deep before.

7/23/2002. Dive #172 for me. Site was recorded as Palancar Caves/Deep. We did some swimthroughs at first before popping out on to the wall around 90' into a ripping current. I don't even remember when it started going down, but it was truly weird. Watching the bubbles go downward. Kicking as hard as I could but watching my depth gauge still slowly increase. Fortunately only got dragged down to 109' before we somehow got out of it. My buddy, who is normally excellent on air, had breathed her tank down to 500 and was freaking out because she had never been that low and certainly not that low and that deep. But we made a safe ascent and ended up breathing fresh air. Back on the boat, the rest of us "experienced" divers were doing that laugh that comes out when you thought you were going to die. But my poor buddy was in tears and so traumatized that she ended up sitting out the second dive.

She had a decent amount of prior experience and fortunately went on to dive another day. A beginner, however, might decide never to dive again even if they were able to survive the dive without mishap. It's not just Santa Rosa Wall and the "advanced" sites that are fraught with danger for the newbie.

---------- Post added April 28th, 2014 at 09:31 AM ----------

That was my thinking as well. Especially for a novice diver, you should do a checkout beach dive first to get familiar with the water, check your gear and get your weighting sorted out before getting on a boat.

Then when you jump in the water off the boat you don't dump all your air to descend. You should stay close to neutral in buoyancy at all times, at least in recreational dives. That's how fish swim; they don't drop like a rock.

I dump all my air to descend and have to deflate my lungs as well. Otherwise I'm overweighted.

 

[cvchief]

It's a lot for the beginner to take on. Not just deeper profiles, but bottomless walls at many sites. Not just drift diving, but occasionally some really fast currents and even down currents. Lots of boat traffic on the surface, yet strong currents can make it easier to get separate from the guide and his or her DSMB. And lately, killer baby sharks!

Well, thank goodness no one told us. Those first dives might have been scary if I knew better....

 

[mikeycanuk]

The Caymans and Turks islands are where we did our first 100 dives. Easy dives, some really deep and occasional surge but no drifts until Cozumel.

 

[Mike]

It is certainly true that there are easier destinations for a new diver's first open water dives. At the same time, there can be many other considerations in making that destination determination other than placid conditions. Our LDS and OW instructor actually discussed the conditions in Coz specifically in our classes as many from NJ consider Cozumel for that first trip (and our LDS runs a trip there every year drawing several of their new divers each time). He felt Cozumel was a good example to ilustrate the why divers should obtain instruction, advice or guidance from persons familar with the specific desired diving location for any dive. Basically, our instructor said he recommends Cozumel or not to new divers based upon his opinion of whether they will take into account the additional factors when planning the trip. For some he would suggest a place with easier conditions, and for some he recommends golf. For those inclined to prepare, practice and seek advice or especially additional instruction he feels it is better than many destinations because of the wide availablility of local instruction and private dive masters.

All true, well and good, but there is no vetting agency in place to save people from themselves who either ignore the advice of your LDS, or what usually is the case simply are totally unaware of it. Like I said it's not that the tougher conditions can't be dealt with successfully, its just a question of on a list of the easiest places to do your first dives after certification, Cozumel would not be bumped far down the list.

---------- Post added April 28th, 2014 at 11:33 AM ----------

You say Roatan, I say Bonaire. Super slow currents, if any. Most of the walls tend to bottom out at a relatively safe depth. The easiest possible introduction to independent diving.

I like Bonaire too, but like Florida, California and the east coast, there is no divemaster for newbies to pretend is watching out for them, and of course often does and will jump in and help them out if possible in Cozumel.

While new divers are supposed to be able to dive with no dive master, I'm not sure how much the lack of one in Bonaire would be a hindrance to them, or the fact there is one in Cozumel is actually a hinderance because it breeds a sense of false security and can take years before divers ever figure out that a dive master isn't really their to watch out and instruct them.

 

[flots am]

Well, thank goodness no one told us. Those first dives might have been scary if I knew better....

Me too! My very first ocean dive was on Coz. It's also where my BC hose tore off and let all the air out of my BC.

Which would have been very exciting if I hadn't had a pain-in-the-ass instructor who made us do all the "boring stuff" like weight checks, during every class. All that happened was that I showed the DM the torn hose, thumbed the dive swam back to the surface and got picked up by the boat.

I probably should have been terrified. Oh well, another missed opportunity.

flots.