Would you dive with someone who wouldn't share air if you were OOA?

[do it easy]

You know while we're all busy bashing someone who isn't here let me remind you that plenty of you guys bashed the heck out of him. It wasn't a one way street by any means.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that we bash anyone. I was opining that this thread had outlived it's usefulness.

 

[Gary D.]

First off let me say since I voted during the first couple of pages I have only skimmed over the rest. This thread seems to be on the verge of getting out of control.

Now I was most likely the first YES vote and I still stand by it. (#16) Dandy, I didn’t do it to cause any problems but expressed my views on it.

(#15) Tonka, I don’t think your buddy is the most dangerous creature you will ever encounter. In all my years I have found the diver himself, not the buddy is the most dangerous.

I’m not picking on you two or anyone else for that matter so please, don’t take it that way. But I feel that just because a buddy says they WILL share air if needed doesn’t mean they will when the flies hit the Westinghouse.

People talk a lot about what they will do in this or that but when things go south will they actually do what they say they will. I’m in a business where talk is cheap. We interview people, do backgrounds, criminal checks and spend thousands on their training. Everything goes well in training but when they hit the real world a large percentage do not make the grade. They just can not live up to those flapping jaws when things go to crap and real evil is staring them in the face.

I was the first or second one to vote yes on this thread. My reason was not to cause problems but to say people should not totally rely on a buddy to save their bacon. There is one person responsible for your safety and that is the person thinking their buddy will get them out of trouble.

Every diver on every dive should look at it as a solo dive even if a buddy or a group of buddies are there with them. People need to be a bit more self sufficient in their thinking.

Quite a few years ago we dealt with two divers that had limited experience. Each one thought the other would get them out of trouble should they ever get into any. The investigation showed the two did almost everything by the book, had good operating gear, good air low but good quality and were within their dive plan. But something happened on the bottom that we will never know for sure that caused them to expire within just a few feet of each other.

When we recovered them both octos were out of their custom fit color coded holders. Were they practicing air swaps at 70’ or did one go for the others air causing a problem? We will never know but what ever it was they both needlessly expired.

Even at police academy’s they teach LEO’s to work as a team BUT you are responsible for your own safety. You may have plenty of help or buddies there to help but each one is responsible for their own safety. If you totally rely on someone else to save you there are going to be careless mistakes made. The responsibility needs to rest with the diver himself. If there is a buddy that can and will offer help great. But if there isn’t for some reason one just needs to be able to take care of themselves.

Gary D.

 

[Papa_Bear]

The rumors of my deletion are greatly exaggerated! I work for a living! LOL as far as threats to my business, your killing me! I am getting such a kick out some of the innocent poster and the ones that know so much! You know the ones who can't read, misinterpret, put words in my mouth, call me names, show bad manners, accuses me of running over the easter bunny, and demanding one million dollars! Well I posted the law and how it applies and not one of you has cited where to find in training "That your air belongs to someone other than you"! You can't post one place where I said one thing that was off color or offensive to anyone here! I have defended myself and that seems to make some mad! But the way you have been trying to demonize me or my position! I have been quoted out of context and outright lies have been told! If you have something to say about your position your methods are whats immoral! It is at least nice to see there are some who get it! BTW I am real choosy as to who I dive with and all most all are turned down and disappointed when I decline their request!

What is really amazing is that Staff goes along with some when they knew I was here!

And yes I am not new to boards!

 

[Papa Steve]

You know, everone is guided by their own personal moral compass and it seems PB and Thalassamania are at opposite poles but is either one wrong?
(As long as those diving with them know which way the needle points)

Yes, of course (at least) one of them is wrong. Both can be wrong but they both can't be right. The illustration of the compass makes the point. We can't choose which way north is. It is what it is. North can't be both north AND south.

Much of this is silly talk. I imagine much of it is people just pushing the envelope to make a point or just trying to play with symantecs to be clever. Though I am sure there are some here who may have a broken compass or left it behind long ago.

Who here would not risk his/her life to save their own child? We would risk it all . . whatever the cost. Though our connection, commitment, bond, and love is much greater for our child, the dignity, intrinsic value, and infinite worth of the irresponsible dive buddy is just as great. When we measure the value of a human life based on how responsibly they planned their dive or how much of a risk it may be to save them we have no moral compass and have lost our way.

 

[Papa_Bear]

So let me see if I can get this straight? It is Right to save someone else and kill yourself and maybe not even save them, right? Do I have this? "Do everything in my power regardless of the risk" to cheat my family out of me? You guys all panicked when faced with the thought that the air in your tank might be yours, and the pressure to panic underwater would be less? If you tech someone how to save a life do you tell them bring them back or don't come back? Lifeguarding would pay pretty well! Do you send someone into a burning building and tell them to risk their life and all the men on the squad to save a life? Maybe? Depends on the circumstances doesn't it? But the most important factor is can you expect to do it safely! It is your air, it is your safety, it is your life and no agency has ever taught some one in open water to risk all to save someone who is OOA and panicking! They never have and never will! Even in Cave Diving your air is your air and you plan for contingencies, but it is still yours!

If it were different then with your logic we wouldn't need donor cards because your buddies organs would belong to you! We would be plucking people off the street to "Give" their organs to save a life! I carry a donor card how about you? But using your logic we shouldn't wait until the donor is dead? Right?

 

[seaducer]

I was the first or second one to vote yes on this thread. My reason was not to cause problems but to say people should not totally rely on a buddy to save their bacon. There is one person responsible for your safety and that is the person thinking their buddy will get them out of trouble.

FWIW I voted no, but not because I rely on my buddy to get me out of trouble. I endeavor through training, skill, and diligence not to need him or her. But if I do, I want to know the person I am divng with cares enough about me to try to help.

Even at police academy’s they teach LEO’s to work as a team BUT you are responsible for your own safety. You may have plenty of help or buddies there to help but each one is responsible for their own safety. If you totally rely on someone else to save you there are going to be careless mistakes made.

If we use that analogy, would feel confident going into a potential gunfight knowing your partner and other responding officers are going to leave you hanging at the first shot? They will run away to preserve their own life and you are on your own?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the squadroom after that incident...

 

[Papa_Bear]

PS, you are talking apples and bananas! The guy in the water made a decision to dive and even took classes, they excepted the risk, just as I have and just as a sky diver knows that it can hit the fan! Again one more time Panic kills not out of air! If you are out of air it is not certain that you will die, but if you panic it is almost always certain! If their attitude about their air is that "Not to worry my buddy has plenty" Because "Their Buddy's air is theirs too!" it is a formula for disaster! But if you are taught that "YOUR" air is precious and you life you will be much more careful about it!

And for those worried about my business I will still do work for National Geographic! It's okay, they like safe divers! Next, if you don't hire me for your next film I will be devastated! If you think I am not proud of what I have done in and on the water? Think again! I AM VERY PROUD!

One more thing, what do I care if someone is checking into my certs? Are you saying someone out there would be lying about that? Anyone wants to know, just ask! I have earned everyone I have listed, how about you?

 

[Papa_Bear]

It is there job! (Cop, Firefighter, The Troops) They all know the risk and except it! We here are talking recreational open water diving! Are you supposed to get Workers comp for your family because some moron killed you in a panic looking at pretty fish until their air was gone? Open water rec diving is not the same! Next it will be "The Children in Africa will die" if you don't think of your air as your buddy's? It's simple, we just don't want to see it the right way! BTW why do we have barricaded suspects? why not just blow the house up? Because we asses the situation and try to rescue all involved by implementing the proper procedure, we never just rush in with the air or the gun!

Look this thread was started about ME, because I was accused on not being willing to share my air because I stated "The air in my tank is mine" and the "The air in your tank is yours" and some people interpreted that as I am not willing to share my air! Nothing could be further from the truth! My point is a panicked diver can kill both you and himself and it is not the responsibility of someone not trained to that level to assist a panicked diver by trying to share air! I had posted that if your not capable then save your own life and be there to assist! Do what you can, but don't risk your own life and end up with two dead divers!

As far as myself I am qualified and will asses each situation as it happens! No one has ever died from a water incident when I was there, and not just their buddy! This thread is a "Basic SCUBA discussion and the problem is we seem to have a number of macho divers who have some tech and some instructor training who want to be seen as the information heroes of this board! It is basic SCUBA folks! Keep it simple and safe!

 

[Thalassamania]

I was the first or second one to vote yes on this thread. My reason was not to cause problems but to say people should not totally rely on a buddy to save their bacon. There is one person responsible for your safety and that is the person thinking their buddy will get them out of trouble.

Every diver on every dive should look at it as a solo dive even if a buddy or a group of buddies are there with them. People need to be a bit more self sufficient in their thinking.

Every diver should always dive as if they were diving solo, a buddy is a backup not an extension, but a buddy must be a willing backup. Someone who will not share their air is not part of the team and, to put it simply, I will not dive with.

 

[Papa_Bear]

What if the buddy is too far away and it was you who got separated? Out of air is not dead, panic kills! Open water basic SCUBA! A SCUBA diver out of air is a Snorkeler! So do what freedivers do! Surface! I can't be clearer than my prior posts!