Worthington hydro

[captain]

I am a electrician. Even though I know I can wire things safely, I still have to wire things according to the National Electric Code. Also the Electrical Engineer who designs the circuit has to design by code. To bad the engineers did not take DOT rules in consideration when designing our tanks.

Actually most of the DOT regulations are merely a replication of the Compressed Gas Association's engineering standards. The government doesn't have the experience or expertise to make the regulations.

Compressed Gas Association

 

[long--shot]

Forget Worthington (sadly) - they are the last of the surviving hot dipped galvanized tanks (PST is DOA last time I checked) and they cannot seem to make an E Series HP tank that can survive a standard hydro without being pre-stretched (there is no rule I could find directing that tanks be stretched in advance and oddly enough it goes against the fundamental concept of what a hydro is testing for: material elasticity). I have gone to Fabers because they have no hydro issues and they are less expensive. For the record, I do miss the rugged hot galvanizing finish I have relied on for 40 years and over a thousand salt water dives.

 

[Cheule]

I'm going to resurrect this old thread because I feel it contains a fair bit of misinformation.

I've followed the issue for years, and feel that Worthington's explanation (via XS Scuba) is reasonable. Their claim is that the hot dipping *is* the issue. The coating which we love so much because it makes the cylinder so rust resistant is also the culprit for hydro fails. In a nut shell, Worthington tanks don't behave like steel would, because they are "bi-metal" (zinc and steel).

As a result, the DOT has amended the special permit that the high pressure hot dipped galvanized tanks fall under: SP14157

It now reads:

(i) Hydrostatic pressure test - Each cylinder must be tested in accordance with § 180.205(g) except;

(A) Each cylinder must be tested to at least 3/2 times the marked service pressure.

(B) A rejection elastic expansion (REE)limit must be developed as specified in CGA Pamphlet C-5. For hot-dip galvanized cylinders, in lieu of the 10% permanent expansion rejection criteria detailed in § 180.205, cylinders are to be condemned if the elastic expansion exceeds the REE that is marked on the cylinder.

Here is a link to all the new DOT and TC documentation (that your hydro facility should be made aware of and use) as well as a video that explains it all pretty well:

XS Scuba - Cylinder Info

Now I assume some of our tin-foil hat wearing brethren might watch the video and feel that Worthington is "up to something." But come on, do really think that you know more about cylinder manufacture that one of the world's leading manufacturers, or more about how to test them than DOT? If you say "no," I think you're being reasonable. If you say "yes," well... I guess the discussion is over.

 

[Rick Christ]

Actually most of the DOT regulations are merely a replication of the Compressed Gas Association's engineering standards. The government doesn't have the experience or expertise to make the regulations.

Compressed Gas Association

CGA wrote the visual inspection criteria

I'm going to resurrect this old thread because I feel it contains a fair bit of misinformation.

I've followed the issue for years, and feel that Worthington's explanation (via XS Scuba) is reasonable. Their claim is that the hot dipping *is* the issue. The coating which we love so much because it makes the cylinder so rust resistant is also the culprit for hydro fails. In a nut shell, Worthington tanks don't behave like steel would, because they are "bi-metal" (zinc and steel).

As a result, the DOT has amended the special permit that the high pressure hot dipped galvanized tanks fall under: SP14157

It now reads:



Here is a link to all the new DOT and TC documentation (that your hydro facility should be made aware of and use) as well as a video that explains it all pretty well:

XS Scuba - Cylinder Info

Now I assume some of our tin-foil hat wearing brethren might watch the video and feel that Worthington is "up to something." But come on, do really think that you know more about cylinder manufacture that one of the world's leading manufacturers, or more about how to test them than DOT? If you say "no," I think you're being reasonable. If you say "yes," well... I guess the discussion is over.

I am so sick and tired of you pompous scubee-doos. You think that you know more about hydostatic retesting of cylinders then the retester, the DOT and everybody else in the industry.

The truth of the matter, very few of you know very much about recertification of your scuba tank , just enough to kill/blowup your self, because some other scubee-do fool told you that you do not have to follow the rules, that you do not like. Because you know more then the people that are trying to keep you safe.

Then after you blowup yourself, your wife, your kids, your friends, your house, your car, your neighbors, etc. you want/try to blame it on the retester, the manufacture, the dive shop, your dive instructor, the fill operator, anyone but you the one that is overfilling, not maintaining your equipment, allowed water to enter into your HP air tank and rust/corrode the inside and outside of a your HP cylinder. Then you ask the fill operator to fill your tank because it is just out of hydro by two months and the v.i.p. is out six months. Your statement is “my dive shop at home does it all the time” and you promise that, if the retester, the dive shop, the fill op. just does this for you just this one time and if yourself, your wife, your kids, your friends, your house, your car, your neighbors get killed/blowup because we did not follow the rules, YOU WON’T bring suit against anyone!

Let me start to clear up something’s that you do not understand:

The job of the retester is not to recertify/pass your tank, The retester’s job is to search all the cylinders that they are given, looking for the few that need to be taken out of service because they are bad/dangerous. So when your tanks are refilled it does not tear you face off. The recertification and returning to service is a by-product of what we are doing. We are not trying to pass your tank, we are looking for those few bad ones.

The retester must follow the corresponding CFR and any instructions included in that CFR. CGA wrote the visual inspection criteria. If it is a Special Permit cylinder, that SP has instructions that the retester must follow. The retester must have a copy of that SP. The retester does not care about what the manufacture (Worthington in this case) or the marketing company (XS Scuba, aka Mark) has to say about anything. The retester must follow the CFR. Not the manufacture.

Now, Worthington thought that they were smarter then PST and could do this hot dip. Worthington was wrong! The hot dip was what put PST out of business in 2005. The older painted PST E9791’s test out great as long as you guys keep the rust out of and off of them. The hot dips fail about >60%. Something about the 2005’s almost all are failing first hydro(the ones with ¾-14, scuba valve)???

Worthington was in trouble, their SP14157 were failing like the 2005 PST. The President of Worthington got on a plane and went to Washington DC and somehow got the test protocol changed. The SP14157’s now are not failing. But, we are now testing them the same as the SCBA’s and they have a life of only 15 years. Worthington may not be out of trouble with these things. Worthington also made/makes a 3AA2400 hot dip and 3AA is a standard and the test protocol can not be changed and those are still failing at a great rate.

Steel Tanks:

Asashi makes a cold dip, They test very good.
Faber, I had only one tank that failed that I could not tell why it failed, It was clean inside and out, it should not have failed. Faber replaced it and wanted it to test it to find out why it failed, I have not heard back from them. Faber’s test great if you keep them clean(no rust)

The Southernmost Retester in the US

 

[Cheule]

I am so sick and tired of you pompous scubee-doos. You think that you know more about hydostatic retesting of cylinders then the retester, the DOT and everybody else in the industry.

Even though you quoted me, you also misrepresented my statement. I explicitly said I do not feel that I (or most of the people in this thread) know more than the DOT or the manufacturers. I would rather listen to what they say than semi-anonymous posters on an internet board.


It could be that you know a ton about this subject, and are expertly qualified. But then I have no good way to evaluate the quality of anyone's advice on a forum such as this. Which is why I posted that Worthington's claims sounded reasonable, and the fact that DOT has amended their special permit sounded fair. Then I was called a "pompous scubee-doo" because I think I know more than DOT?


So weird--and why forums like this can be a treacherous place filled with misinformation and ad-hominem attacks. Even so, I appreciate your time to chime in on the issue.

 

[tech_diver]

LOL... 'pompous scubee-doo'

updating my status

Roll Call Pompous Scubee-doos sound off!

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I am so sick and tired of you pompous scubee-doos.

Do you run a shop or test facility of some kind? If so, kindly disclose what it is, so I can avoid ever giving it my business. TYIA.

 

[Aqua-Andy]

CGA wrote the visual inspection criteria




I am so sick and tired of you pompous scubee-doos. You think that you know more about hydostatic retesting of cylinders then the retester, the DOT and everybody else in the industry.

The truth of the matter, very few of you know very much about recertification of your scuba tank , just enough to kill/blowup your self, because some other scubee-do fool told you that you do not have to follow the rules, that you do not like. Because you know more then the people that are trying to keep you safe.

Then after you blowup yourself, your wife, your kids, your friends, your house, your car, your neighbors, etc. you want/try to blame it on the retester, the manufacture, the dive shop, your dive instructor, the fill operator, anyone but you the one that is overfilling, not maintaining your equipment, allowed water to enter into your HP air tank and rust/corrode the inside and outside of a your HP cylinder. Then you ask the fill operator to fill your tank because it is just out of hydro by two months and the v.i.p. is out six months. Your statement is “my dive shop at home does it all the time” and you promise that, if the retester, the dive shop, the fill op. just does this for you just this one time and if yourself, your wife, your kids, your friends, your house, your car, your neighbors get killed/blowup because we did not follow the rules, YOU WON’T bring suit against anyone!

Let me start to clear up something’s that you do not understand:

The job of the retester is not to recertify/pass your tank, The retester’s job is to search all the cylinders that they are given, looking for the few that need to be taken out of service because they are bad/dangerous. So when your tanks are refilled it does not tear you face off. The recertification and returning to service is a by-product of what we are doing. We are not trying to pass your tank, we are looking for those few bad ones.

The retester must follow the corresponding CFR and any instructions included in that CFR. CGA wrote the visual inspection criteria. If it is a Special Permit cylinder, that SP has instructions that the retester must follow. The retester must have a copy of that SP. The retester does not care about what the manufacture (Worthington in this case) or the marketing company (XS Scuba, aka Mark) has to say about anything. The retester must follow the CFR. Not the manufacture.

Now, Worthington thought that they were smarter then PST and could do this hot dip. Worthington was wrong! The hot dip was what put PST out of business in 2005. The older painted PST E9791’s test out great as long as you guys keep the rust out of and off of them. The hot dips fail about >60%. Something about the 2005’s almost all are failing first hydro(the ones with ¾-14, scuba valve)???

Worthington was in trouble, their SP14157 were failing like the 2005 PST. The President of Worthington got on a plane and went to Washington DC and somehow got the test protocol changed. The SP14157’s now are not failing. But, we are now testing them the same as the SCBA’s and they have a life of only 15 years. Worthington may not be out of trouble with these things. Worthington also made/makes a 3AA2400 hot dip and 3AA is a standard and the test protocol can not be changed and those are still failing at a great rate.

Steel Tanks:

Asashi makes a cold dip, They test very good.
Faber, I had only one tank that failed that I could not tell why it failed, It was clean inside and out, it should not have failed. Faber replaced it and wanted it to test it to find out why it failed, I have not heard back from them. Faber’s test great if you keep them clean(no rust)

The Southernmost Retester in the US

Feel better after getting that off your chest? So you know more than the manufacturer about hot hot dipping tanks affects the metallurgy of them?

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Like a good little bureaucrat, he knows how to follow The Rules. Question not the logic behind The Rules, or whether they actually work in a specific situation. If it's the the CFR, it's there for Your Safety*.

Interesting that he thinks just because they're being tested in a manner similar to SCBAs, they automagically might also inherit the limited lifespan of a SCBA. No facts to back that up, nor a recognition of why SCBAs have that limited lifespan...and interestingly, no cite to the CFR section proving that's the case. Why the sudden lack of concern about what the CFR said, O' wisest hydrotesting superhero?

*unless some sneaky tank builder got it snuck into the CFR by asking those dang politicians in Washington <spiiiiittt> D.C. to make the rules different for their tanks; then the CFR is just stupid and dangerous.

 

[Topbodz]

We hydro steel tanks according to procedures... Haven't failed a steel tank yet.....

if you have concerns in S. Fla. (we're in Dania, Fl. ) bring them to me. We do the correct procedure and have the best prices in town.

Scuba Tank Services. 954 667-2734. Scubatankservices.com