Why?

[Luis H]

some BPW pros are: ... reduced drag,

I don’t know who started that rumor, but I am aware of test that proven that to be wrong. I am in search of copies of the test reports, but I have not located one yet. The information did come from what I consider a reliable source.

From an observation stand point (I am not a hydrodynamics expert, just an engineer), I can’t see how a wing can have less drag than a well fitting jacket. Perhaps a loose fitting jacket with all kinds of dangling accessories is what has given it the poor perception of drag. That is not an equipment problem, it is the diver problem.



A well fitting jacket has one huge advantage over any other types of BC for open ocean diving. When you fully inflated it can raise you out of the water high enough to give you far better view of the area and to be able to signal a boat more effectively.

Underwater, I feel they all work about the same. If you are properly weighted, it doesn’t make much difference.



BTW, I dive most of the time a very simple modified jacket (shoulder harness goes directly to the conventional hard plastic back pack, no cummerbund, regular 2” waist strap, and crotch strap, etc.), but I also dive wing with no back plate for double (just harness attached to the bands), sometimes no wing just the harness, sometimes I use a horse collar, sometimes no BC, and I do use a variety of backpacks and plain harness with single tanks. I have also dived a variety of other configurations including the Dacor Nautilus rigid ballast system.

 

[Walter]

Why do most experienced divers prefer the bp/w over a regular BC?

We don't. Some do, some don't. The majority of experienced divers do not use a BP/wing BC.

 

[Nemrod]

I cannot speak for any but myself. I learned to dive before there were BCs. I never liked having anything around my chest or slipping and sliding all over me. I for a while used the horsecollar type BC (or none) until into the mid 70s when early wings became available and I have since never dove anything but a wing/BP. I have only tried vests and back inflates etc a few times and I HATE them with their cumberbunds and chest straps and plastic buckles and all sorts of doodads and I loath the way they slip and slide. They also fight good trim and usually require more weight which also fights good trim.

While I don't think a wing/BP is vintage a BP with Hog harness is as simple as it gets and is very traditional. A wing like my Mach V (18 and 30) with a simple Hog harness feels like I have nothing on me, it trims neutral easily and horizontal naturally, it is secure and stable and comfortable and there is no drag or rolling as with the potato sack with arm holes type BC that is so popular.

Luis, a wing/BP has less drag, it is not a rumor, you only have to try them in current to see. Not all are created equal, some like my old Sea Tec wing would luff and taco, my new Mach V units do not. They are tucked in so tight they ride in the slipstream/shadow of the divers body. There is nothing on the chest or shoulder flapping in the breeze, billowing pockets full of sand to grab the current, multiple D rings loaded with trinkets clinking and clanging. Luis, I see you have a new rig, you are headed my way, I see a convert in the making. You got the wing, now you just need to take the logical step back to a simple harness and you will be good as gold and you will feel just like you were in the 60s.

As well, a wing does not work like the typical jacket, a wing concentrates lift closer to the hips whereas a jacket has it up around the shoulders and upper chest, wings have by their design ZERO lift at the shoulders which is why they trim so nicely.

N

 

[Luis H]

I cannot speak for any but myself. I learned to dive before there were BCs. I never liked having anything around my chest or slipping and sliding all over me. I for a while used the horsecollar type BC (or none) until into the mid 70s when early wings became available and I have since never dove anything but a wing/BP. I have only tried vests and back inflates etc a few times and I HATE them with their cumberbunds and chest straps and plastic buckles and all sorts of doodads and I loath the way they slip and slide. They also fight good trim and usually require more weight which also fights good trim.

While I don't think a wing/BP is vintage a BP with Hog harness is as simple as it gets and is very traditional. A wing like my Mach V (18 and 30) with a simple Hog harness feels like I have nothing on me, it trims neutral easily and horizontal naturally, it is secure and stable and comfortable and there is no drag or rolling as with the potato sack with arm holes type BC that is so popular.

Luis, a wing/BP has less drag, it is not a rumor, you only have to try them in current to see. Not all are created equal, some like my old Sea Tec wing would luff and taco, my new Mach V units do not. They are tucked in so tight they ride in the slipstream/shadow of the divers body. There is nothing on the chest or shoulder flapping in the breeze, billowing pockets full of sand to grab the current, multiple D rings loaded with trinkets clinking and clanging. Luis, I see you have a new rig, you are headed my way, I see a convert in the making. You got the wing, now you just need to take the logical step back to a simple harness and you will be good as gold and you will feel just like you were in the 60s.

As well, a wing does not work like the typical jacket, a wing concentrates lift closer to the hips whereas a jacket has it up around the shoulders and upper chest, wings have by their design ZERO lift at the shoulders which is why they trim so nicely.

N

I think that you are still thinking of the old Scubapro jacket from the 70’s with arm holes and buoyancy all around.

My vest has no lift on the shoulders and it does have the same 5 point harness similar to a vintage Sea Hunt style harness (I do not like cummerbunds either). It came with the same type of backpack I used in the 70’s (I did modified the harness to fully use the back pack strap slots). If you ever have a chance to try my vest, you will see that it is at least as secure as the best harness (possibly better, I would have to show you).

In my vest there is also nothing in front of me other than the same type of harness as in any backpack or even similar to a vintage rig. The only added flotation is on my sides down by my waist (nothing high near my arms). This extra floatation never has any air unless I am on the surface seating very high. Underwater the buoyancy is in the same location as a wing, but it is not allowed to form a taco around the tank because it is controlled by the straps in the harness. It is kept fairly snug against my body. You need to try it someday.


For doubles I am now using a horse shoe wing from Zeagle (will post pictures later) with no back-plate, just a 5 point harness similar to a modified vintage or any modern 5 point harness. I don’t see any advantage on putting a plate on doubles…they are naturally comfortable.


About the hydrodynamic drag, the answer is that I have tried it and with out instrumentation I challenge anyone who tries to tell that they can feel a difference. Human perception is so biased that it is meaningless in measurements of this type. On the other hand, instrumented testing at relatively higher speeds (like behind a scooter) have shown that wings can have a large amount of drag. Granted, not all wings are created equal, but not all vests are created equal either (lets compare apples and apples).
BTW, the lowest drag shown in tests came from using a Fenzy.

I agree that there are probably many poor fitting vests being used by many, but again that is just poor selection. There are also many that are way too complicated with weight integration, etc., etc.


There are definitely pros and cons to every type of floatation device I have ever used, but one thing in common is that there is IMHO some poorly designed equipment in all categories as well as some well design equipment.

 

[Nemrod]

This is what I used before there were BCs:

This is what I use now that you guys do and I don't:

But of course sometimes I attach this to it:

Or if I am feeling nostalgic:

Or I can go with no BC and no matter what I choose I can do it all with the same plate and and Hog harness just like I did in 1966.

As to getting in and out of a Hog harness, you can install a buckle, twist lock, snaps in the LH shoulder just below the D ring position for ease of egress or entry. There is another reason many prefer the BP/wing, the modular concept as I allude to in this post, a wing or plate can be swapped and used with other wings etc. Wings are available in lift ranges from 16 lbs to over 50 or more for doubles. This range does not seem to exist in the jacket/back inflate/vest type BC. An Oxy Cheq 18 pound lift Mach V wing is very small and very narrow and weighs not much and it packs very small compared to a jacket BC. Not all plates are the big square bent pieces of metal, there are plastic plates, form fitting plates like mine and even flexible light weight plates like the Oxy ultra light travel plate. The wing/BP should be thought of as a modular system that can be configured to fit an exact need. Most wing/BP divers own more than one plate and wing so they can configure for doubles, singles, tropical travel or under ice diving as they need.

N

 

[marchand]

I wouldn't say that most experienced divers use a BP/W, but most technical divers. The reason is that there really is nothing better for diving doubles. The hard plate adds stability and the standard harness removes a lot of potential failure points. back plates last nearly forever, and the only maintenance is periodically replacing the webbing which is dirt cheap. The wings are also very rugged and if you happen to poke a hole in it, it is easy and fairly cheap to replace the inner bladder. The BP/W is pretty much the only BC that can stand hard core technical diving.

 

[ArcticDiver]

As has been pointed out you will get a biased viewpoint from posts on SB. That is true for most subjects. Remember, people who post here are self-selecting and therefore probably do not reperesent the diving community as a whole. Also, since people can post anonymously they can shill for their favorite thing. So, it is wise to take just about anything with a grain of salt; some with a whole shaker full.

Bottom line is for you, the user, to take what you read; give it a reality check; do some more research; then decide what works for you.

 

[NudeDiver]

Just out of curiosity - you Black Diamond guys - have you used a BD for doubles? I know you can get a replacement "back plate" of sorts for it to use doubles. I'm just wondering if anyone has actually used it in this config and what they thought about it.

I'm a LOOOOOOONG way from using doubles. I'm just curious

 

[beanojones]

Or I can go with no BC and no matter what I choose I can do it all with the same plate and and Hog harness just like I did in 1966.

As to getting in and out of a Hog harness, you can install a buckle, twist lock, snaps in the LH shoulder just below the D ring position for ease of egress or entry.

N

All the hull cleaners in Hawaii still use those Healthways. And they are still diving the same tanks that came with them too. I owned and dove a couple of steels that had a '63 original hydro. Buy 'em for $50.00 bucks dive 'em ten years, sell them for fifty bucks.

People who have trick shoulders have a real hard time with harnesses though. And since shoulder hits are fairly common, a lot of the guys just buckle the waist, and skip one or both shoulders.

 

[gijo1977]

Hey,

I have recently been through the decision you are currently making now. I had a very nice Pro QD that was handed down to me and found it did not really suit me. I also tried the SP Knight Hawk. Both of these BCD’s were great, but both failed to meet my immediate needs (both for different reasons) and also could not meet my future needs of doing some moderate tech style diving (Sydney wrecks are mostly around 60m)

I did all my own research here on the board and also my LDS and some other forums. The BP/W option, once I tried it, nearly immediately fixed my trim problems (They were a combo of BCD/ heavy legs and a fair amount of skill deficit) and made me more comfortable in the water. I required less weight on my hips (Better distribution on the plate) and I find that the crotch strap ensures that the buoyancy is located in the same place all the time. As for tipping you forward, I find that to be a little bit over talked, I have no problems sitting upright on the surface, and never feel like I am being forced forwards.

I also made the purchase with the future in mind, the BP/W is so modular, that no matter what feature you liked on a jacket BC you are likely to find the same option in a modular form for the BP/W, so you can have the options you want and nothing you don’t. If you travel a lot, the BP/W was awesome, the plate can be alloy and fits in the carry on if needed , and the wing roles down to the size of a small towel, and depending on the wing you do not need an STA to fit your tank.

I also found the top of the range BCD’s like the Knight Hawk cost more than a complete Halcyon Eclipse BP/W at my LDS. So I imagine you can grab a DSS or oxy cheque setup for much less than the cost of a top of the range BCD.

PS. You can also resize the straps if you put any weight on in the future, or better yet, lose some , Cant do that with a jacket !