Why would you want to dump weight?

[Rick Inman]

Having the correct amount of weight and the correct amount of detatchable weight reduces the consequences of losing weights at depth or being slow to drop them at the surface.

Maybe I'm missing it here, but if a diver is weighted correctly, isn't 2# enough ditch-able weight at depth? If I'm at 80' and neutrally buoyant and you dump 2# of my weight, then give me a gentle push upward, in about 30 seconds I'll be rocketing toward the surface if I don't dump air. In fact, if I'm neutral, you just drag me up 10 feet and I'll be on my way, without dumping weight.
Am I wrong?

 

[Former FLL Now MSP Diver]

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "WOW----WHAT A RIDE!!!"

Mike - they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Now do you remember where you saw it?

Marc

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike - they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Now do you remember where you saw it?

Marc

Actually I do remember where I saw it. I copied it from the bottom of a joke email that I recieved from my Father a week or 2 ago.

 

[crispos]

For example, in getting back to the original question, I saw the answer as quite simple and straightforward:

As such, since that contingency option is of low value, the need for having the additional complexity of the necessary enablers for ditching weight (& gear) is of no net effective value for that environment, so it is unnecessary complexity that can be eliminated.

However, it should be clearly noted that these conclusions apply to their specific dive environments as listed: caution is required when trying to apply the one to the other, so as to not muck up individual system requirements and constraints.
-hh

You might tell me what you mean. I have no clue what you are saying. But I am sure it is very intelligent.

I thought of another scenario where weight ditch is necessary and has nothing to do with having bad diving skills.

You are diving in cold water so you have a double 7mm suit on. You rent full gear from the shop, you jump in the water, and half way down, the patch covering a tear in the bladder of your rental BCD fails. Since your suit is compressed, you continue down down down and unless you ditch your weight belt/system, you are a goner.

This was a documented cause of a fatality in Ontario in 1992 and if I dig, I can find other buoyancy failures requiring ditch.

I have contacted some other recreational dive associations to see what their position is on teaching weight ditch at depth.

I have half of my weights in my BCD, half on the belt, and I agree that is a sensible way to plan to allow a ditch but avoid an uncontrollable ascent.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You might ditching the jargon and telling me what you mean?

I thought of another scenario where weight ditch is necessary and has nothing to do with having bad diving skills.

You are diving in cold water so you have a double 7mm suit on. You rent full gear from the shop, you jump in the water, and half way down, the patch on the bladder of your BCD fails. Since your suit is compressed, you continue down down down and unless you ditch your weight belt, you are a goner.

If you're properly weighted I doubt it. All my wet suit diving is in a 2 piece 7 mil suit and I can swim it up easily with no air in the wing. I do have a few pounds ditchable but at any depth where I'll be in a wet suit and a single tank I can get to the surface without ditching weight though. Also, depending on the location of the hole the wing is likely to still be able to hold some air.

Try it. IMO, every one should know how their rig is going to dive if their bc totally fails.

 

[crispos]

If you're properly weighted I doubt it. All my wet suit diving is in a 2 piece 7 mil suit and I can swim it up easily with no air in the wing. I do have a few pounds ditchable but at any depth where I'll be in a wet suit and a single tank I can get to the surface without ditching weight though. Also, depending on the location of the hole the wing is likely to still be able to hold some air.

Try it. IMO, every one should know how their rig is going to dive if their bc totally fails.

I am telling you, people are dead because of buoyancy failures. You continue to answer how great a diver you are.

You have to stop using yourself (IANTD and TDI Instructor) as an example Mike. We are talking about Basic Divers here!

I know plenty that are out of shape, and need 35-40 lbs to get down (Please, no more buoyancy rants, I understand that is your personal bugaboo).

I bet you don't have an ounce of fat on you, Mike.

 

[jonnythan]

Uhh I'm pretty sure Mike has taught plenty of OW divers. He [used to] talk quite a bit about his OW class. He knows about "Basic Divers" and knows that they're capable of much more than most people give them credit.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I am telling you, people are dead because of buoyancy failures. You continue to answer how great a diver you are.

I never said that I was a great diver. I said that I can easily swim my equipment up without the help of my bc/wing.

Do you want me to lie!? ok if you're bc fails you haven't a chance unless you ditch your weight and do a moon shoot. Happy?

I had my fingers crossed when I wrote that so it don't count though.

You have to stop using yourself (IANTD and TDI Instructor) as an example Mike. We are talking about Basic Divers here!

Phisics is the same for basic divers as for any one else and basic divers should be ccorrectly weighted, have enough ditchable weight (but not too much) and know what kind of situation they'll be in if they do have a wing failure.

It's not my fault that this very simple and very basic stuff isn't taught to basic divers

I know plenty that are out of shape, and need 35-40 lbs to get down (Please, no more buoyancy rants, I understand that is your personal bugaboo).

Phisical condition is certainly something to consider which is one reason I suggested that divers try swimming their rig up. But...some boddy fat is going to help you get up because fat floats.

If the diver truely needs 40 pounds to get down then they will be neutral near the surface with a near empty tank and will only ever be negative by the weight of the gas they carry and the loss of buoyancy due to suit compression.

I bet you don't have an ounce of fat on you, Mike.

Well I must have a little because I no longer sink when I hold a normal breath like I once did. Fat or thin the theory stays the same.

Even a "basic diver" should not risk their life by diving an equipment configuration that they can't swim up controling the ascent all the way to the surface.

If you don't want an answer then why ask the gol-dern question.

Drop your weight if you're convinced it's the right thing to do! ok?

Every one,

at crispos request I'll address all subject from the perspective of a diver who doesn't understand the most fundimental aspects of diving. This should be fun but they'll propbably ban me for giving dangerous advice. LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

Uhh I'm pretty sure Mike has taught plenty of OW divers. He [used to] talk quite a bit about his OW class. He knows about "Basic Divers" and knows that they're capable of much more than most people give them credit.

I've trained a few anyway.

When teaching a PADI class I discussed how to find the right amount of weight and the right amount of ditchable weight in module 2 which is where weight systems are addressed. You can't get much more basic than chapter 2 of an OW class. Of course all the book says about weight systems is that the most important feature in the quick release mechanism. At the same time they do list a buoyant emergency ascent as the last resort. I just gave a little more insight as to how to avoid needing to use it. Shame on me.

 

[RiverRat]

Crispos,

I think training standards are pretty clear on what is to be taught with regard to weight ditching...at depth it's a last resort...and at the surface...when in doubt, pitch the weight.

Standards are also clear that divers are to be properly weighted. Instructors often fail here by overweighting students to make their own job easier...or so they think.

I think though that training could be better in the area of teaching students how to balance a rig so they have the right amount of ditchable weight.
Having the correct amount of weight and the correct amount of detatchable weight reduces the consequences of losing weights at depth or being slow to drop them at the surface.

I couldn't agree with you more on this. I've only been diving about a year, did AOW, Nitrox and now taking Rescue. The 2 other divers in my Rescue class were a little mesmerized by my FredT/Oxycheq setup in the pool session. It was clear when they asked me a few questions that the whole BP/W idea (and more importanty WHY I choose to dive it) was somewhat of a mystery to them. In any event one of the divers in the class was grosly overweighted. He was exhausted by the end of the class just trying to keep his head out of the water. When I did the move (forget what it's called) to get behind his tank, inflate his BC and lift him above the water I could not do it! Part of the problem was me being unfamilier with his inflator and after I got air in the BC not dropping his weights right away (again, equipment unfamilierarity, should be practiced with a real buddy). In any event he stated when the class started that he was overweighted, but for whatever reason did not make any attempt to correct it. I really think some people just don't get the concept right away and unfortunately learn the hard way. Lots of struggling dives. I hate to think of the outcome if this was a real dive and this guy ditched his weight...............

I'm going to add this now that I'm reflecting a bit on the class,
if this diver WAS NOT grosly overweighted I probably would have been able to lift him above the water WITHOUT ditching his weights.