Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

[KenGordon]

How does a diver run OOG?
How many times have you run out of fuel in your car?
What step do you take to make sure neither happens?
What is all this talk of Running OOG?
Does this really happen in real life or just on scubaboard?
Is this just an abstract?
I can't Believe any competent properly trained diver wouldn't pay attention to gas supply.
Are you telling me that everyone on SB isn't a properly trained diver?
Please explain.

Of course it should never happen but it is a risk and it does happen. It can be due to lack of attention, free flows, failed o ring, bad gauge, deco miscalculations or an endless list of issues. Proper planning is to stop those events leading to both divers ending up out of air and so with a high likelihood of death.

If I have a failure I expect to be able to go to my buddy for gas. If my buddy has already used so much that we will not make it to the surface then they have let me down. That 'reserve' is mine and not his to waste looking at fish or hassling lobsters because we didn't plan allowing for an issue.

 

[Searcaigh]

I can't Believe any competent properly trained diver wouldn't pay attention to gas supply.

There are quite a few incompetent divers around though.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

There are quite a few incompetent divers around though.

Well then, this opens up a whole separate debate about why divers aren't competent.
One question is, are divers trained up to a competent level before they are signed off from OW, then they become complacent and incompetent later, or are they leaving out critical potentially life saving information from basic OW.
Please say it isn't so!

When I got PADI OW certified my instructor was really good. It was hammered into us to PAY ATTENTION!
No excuses.

 

[boulderjohn]

Well then, this opens up a whole separate debate about why divers aren't competent.
One question is, are divers trained up to a competent level before they are signed off from OW, then they become complacent and incompetent later, or are they leaving out critical potentially life saving information from basic OW.
Please say it isn't so!

When I got PADI OW certified my instructor was really good. It was hammered into us to PAY ATTENTION!
No excuses.

In the past, there was not a lot of time in the OW class devoted to this. Instructors who hammered this into their students were doing it on their own. PADI changed their OW course last year, and now instructors are required to hammer this into their students. There are several occasions, even in the confined water sessions, when students are supposed to ask their buddies for their gas levels, and the buddy is expected to respond without looking, because the buddy has checked recently enough to have a pretty good idea.

 

[Nemrod]

I like air integration now.

On the subject of SCUBA instruction. I spent three days diving and photographing at the BHB. Two of the days were excellent, not many people there. But, on the third day there were several classes there. I know for a fact one was an advanced class. They were all roto-tilling the bottom. They were also all, all, doing the PADI circle performing their skills, KNEELING on the bottom damaging the environment and killing everything they were kneeling all over. Yes, it is true, I have an agenda, skills should be performed mid water, and until such time as the student can do them mid water they should not pass the course. I have no idea, how many times, I have watched a diver go to ground on a coral reef to clear their masks. Divers are not the only thing impacting coral reef health, certainly, but in some places they are, IMO, the primary cause of reef damage.

N

 

[Searcaigh]

My OW instructor was pretty strict, you would get a bollocking for leaving a tank standing up if it was set up with a reg attached.

Amusingly enough I mentioned this to my daughter whilst she was completing her DM course last June, and pointed out a tank standing up on a table fully set up no less, and said if that falls over the first stage is going to be damaged (actually I used a slightly different different description) and within less than 30 seconds of me mentioning this it fell off and landed on the first stage.

Turned out it belonged to another DM in training who was struggling to make up the 60 dives he required to complete the course! Fortunately for him it landed on sand, but what if the surface had been more solid.

I would have to comment that a lot of local divers in my region trained by "local" instructors where discipline is an unknown word (along with maintenance), are the only examples I have experienced running OOA. Judging by the number of people I see filling containers at petrol stations here, running out of fuel is not uncommon either.

 

[boulderjohn]

I like air integration now.

On the subject of SCUBA instruction. I spent three days diving and photographing at the BHB. Two of the days were excellent, not many people there. But, on the third day there were several classes there. I know for a fact one was an advanced class. They were all roto-tilling the bottom. They were also all, all, doing the PADI circle performing their skills, KNEELING on the bottom damaging the environment and killing everything they were kneeling all over. Yes, it is true, I have an agenda, skills should be performed mid water, and until such time as the student can do them mid water they should not pass the course. I have no idea, how many times, I have watched a diver go to ground on a coral reef to clear their masks. Divers are not the only thing impacting coral reef health, certainly, but in some places they are, IMO, the primary cause of reef damage.

N

You should report that. Instructional standards include clear language about protecting the environment during classes.

School teachers receive many times the preparation that scuba instructors do, and they have many, many times the amount of supervision that scuba instructors do, yet there are untold thousands of truly incompetent school teachers in America alone. In a school building, the people who are supposed to be making sure all education occurs at a high level work in the same building as those teachers and are required to observe and evaluate their work regularly. They only have a relative handful of teachers to supervise. Despite all of that, incompetent instruction continues.

There is no question that in every agency there are instructors who do a terrible job. The people who are supposed to make sure that scuba education occurs at a high level work in remote locations, sometimes thousands of miles away from the working instructor. They are responsible for many thousands of such instructors. They can't do that job unless someone tells them when things go wrong.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Overweighting post removed.

I started another thread in Basic scuba about overweighting if anybody is interested
(since we're on the topic of standards violations)

---------- Post added August 1st, 2015 at 02:13 PM ----------

Back on track with AI.
Another possibility with people getting too tunnel visioned with computer use, or only staring at an SPG for that matter to determine a dive profile. Let's say a pressure reading stays at 2000 psi on an AL 80 and the diver's been at 70 feet already for 40 minutes. Well, anybody who pays attention to time would realize that there's something wrong with the picture and figure out that there would be no way to have that much gas remaining. Tank pressure is only one component of the equation. A stuck SPG might be responsible for a few OOA situations I don't know, but keeping track of depth and time would have given a heads up that's something's not right. I would imagine that a digital device measuring tank pressure would be less prone to such failures.

All I'm saying is, regardless of what you're using, don't run your dives using tank pressure alone like I see so many do. It's three things, tank pressure, depth, and time. Depth and time are the premium factors at the beginning through the middle of the dive, and tank pressure becomes the premium factor towards the end of the dive and rules over depth and time. It's pretty easy, just make sure you pay attention to your SPG and leave the bottom with enough air to make it back regardless if you've used up your allowable BT or not.
Maybe the J-valve might make a comeback who knows. Apparently some people might benefit from one.

 

[Kharon]

Let's say a pressure reading stays at 2000 psi on an AL 80 and the diver's been at 70 feet already for 40 minutes. Well, anybody who pays attention to time would realize that there's something wrong with the picture and figure out that there would be no way to have that much gas remaining.

Actually after 40 minutes at 70 feet the critical thing to notice is that your computer is telling you that you have 8 minutes left before NDL. How much air you have left is moot as long as it's enough to get you back to the surface. There's a lot more than air pressure to monitor to dive safely.

I like my AI Icon because I can easily check PSI every time I check all the other things I need to keep track of (depth, NDL, dive time, etc.). I also compare what my SPG says to the AI periodically. Should they not agree I would abort at once.

Seems to me the answer to the original post (after reading this thread that has very long legs, has wandered all over the place, and has been repetative) "haters gonna hate". If they don't like it they will find any argument they can (even some very tortured ones). If they do like it - same thing. No body gonna change anybodys mind.

 

[Patoux01]

and the buddy is expected to respond without looking, because the buddy has checked recently enough to have a pretty good idea.

Wait, is that how it's supposed to go? My check on the SPG simply consists of "enough", "turn soon", "ascend soon", "****.", and for the sake of me, I can't see why we'd need to memorize exactly how much there is. (not talking some technical diving, but even then I feel like "my way" would be good enough)