Why so many casualties?

[Saltwater Junky]

In addition to the DAN Stats, I would like to see the home state, name of the OW instructor(s), and certifying agency of those divers. This information can help determine if the O/W course is adequate and if their is a breakdown in the instruction. Of course this will not help in those cases where the diver was being reckless or cavalier.

Re: Instruction
Do instructors have to get re-cert'd? If so, how often.

 

[Noboundaries]

Media access and reporting can shift perception and focus, making it appear that an upward or downward trend is occurring when in fact nothing has changed except the spotlight and people's awareness.

 

[BarryNL]

Re: Instruction
Do instructors have to get re-cert'd? If so, how often.

Only GUE instructors, as far as I know. Think it's every three years.

 

[Walter]

Let's see, in 1944 there were an average of 90 scuba deaths in the US.

Where did you find that number? I'd like to see your source. I'd be very surprised to learn there were any SCUBA divers in the US in 1944. From what I've heard, the first units arrived here in 1946.

 

[mike the brit]

My personnal view on this is that you can get qualified as a divemaster or instructor with very little 'actual' dive experience over a very short period of time. Is it 60 dives for divemaster these days, and these can be all in the same water temp, similar depths, no current etc etc. This results in relatively inexperienced instructors, teaching novices and passing on their bad habits. The training does not appear to really cover varying conditions in some countries. Now i know this is not always the case before I upset anyone.

It is probably a combination of the above and the fact that more and more unfit people are diving now. I have witnessed a father physically towing his two young kids out from shore and drag them down trying to get them neutrally bouyant. The kids clearly could not manage the weight of the equipment or manage their own bouyancy......I was gobsmacked as if one had a problem the father would likely need to let go of the other child who would either become bouyant or sink like a stone. Crazy stunts like this are probably not that uncommon.

If people are not used to currents but then embark on drift dives with poor supervision then getting lost is inevitable based on the number of people diving.

Reporting of incidents/ accidents/ missing divers is also a 'better' news story these days probably after some holywood movies in recent years.

I'm rambling....sorry!!!
happy diving
Mike

 

[seaducer]

In addition to the DAN Stats, I would like to see the home state, name of the OW instructor(s), and certifying agency of those divers. This information can help determine if the O/W course is adequate and if their is a breakdown in the instruction. Of course this will not help in those cases where the diver was being reckless or cavalier.

Re: Instruction
Do instructors have to get re-cert'd? If so, how often.

I have no idea what knowing the certifying agency and instructor would tell us. Since PADI is far and away the largest certifying agency, it stands to reason that the majority of divers are PADI certified, and again, the majority of accidents will occur to this group.

Without knowing the details, it is impossible to draw conclusions from certain data.

If you complete your OW in June, and in July you drown in the Great Blue Hole in Belize at 140 feet, is that the agency or instructor's doing? I am sure they were exposed to the OW limit is 60 feet "rule", but just because you give somebody the tools does not make them a mechanic.

By the same token, someone who was certified in 1967, but is now 63, overweight, and ignoring symptoms of heart disease goes on a drift dive and strokes out, is that again, agency, instructor, ?

To be honest, whether it is fitness, common sense, or lack of training, you have to admit there is a seriously low amount of people having serious or fatal accidents in SCUBA, when comapred to the number of dives being made.

 

[Noboundaries]

Where did you find that number? I'd like to see your source. I'd be very surprised to learn there were any SCUBA divers in the US in 1944. From what I've heard, the first units arrived here in 1946.

Wow, dyslexia strikes again. I read the quote early in the thread about five times and saw 1944 each time I read it. I assumed they were talking about commercial diving. I didn't see 1994 until just now. Thanks for the challenge.

I'll delete my other post. My bad.

 

[danvolker]

I keep seeing more and more of these threads for lost, injured or killed divers.

Personally, I mostly dive with insta-buddy and I'd say 25% of them DO dive beyond their capabilities.

What is everybody's take on the subject ?

I blame some of this on the dive industry....Particularly now, when the economy is bad, and sales of dive gear and instruction are worse than ever, the solution seems to be that there is no such thing as a person who should not be a diver...ie., sell, sell, sell.
The problem is that there are many people who should not be diving in anything beyond a swimming pool.

• Some do not have the fitness it takes to be safe in the ocean.
• Some can not have a problem without panicking--some people are prone to panicking--and these are usually easy to spot. These people should NEVER be certified.
• Some people do not have the coordination to even walk in dive gear, let alone perform skills underwater...they should never be certified.
• 25 percent of all divers have a PFO. This begs a DCS incident, and the only excuse for not testing/pre-screening dive candiates for PFO's would be the cost, and the loss of 25% of the market for gear sales and instruction.
• Some people have absolutely no judgement regarding what they can handle..again, this is a character issue and can be seen in a person, if you dive with them a few times, in open water conditions which "should be" included in any basic scuba certification.

While each of these issues has existed since the 90's and earlier, they are becoming more problematic now, as dive shops and the industry are scrambling to find new targets for marketing. Today, I believe many shops would find it impossible to say NO to vitually any person interested in getting certified--and this is irresponsible. This will create more diver deaths. However, the ultimate blame is NOT on a greedy shop..the ultimate blame is on the "clueless" that got themself into diving, even though they have panick issues, no coordination, or whatever---each of us is responsible for our own decisions. For these people, we have Darwin.

 

[BarryNL]

25 percent of all divers have a PFO. This begs a DCS incident, and the only excuse for not testing/pre-screening dive candiates for PFO's would be the cost, and the loss of 25% of the market for gear sales and instruction.

What nonsense - I suggest you get over to the DAN website and read some proper science on this issue. If it was remotely the problem you seem to think then why aren't 25% of divers regularly getting undeserved DCS hits?

 

[danvolker]

What nonsense - I suggest you get over to the DAN website and read some proper science on this issue. If it was remotely the problem you seem to think then why aren't 25% of divers regularly getting undeserved DCS hits?

I have seen many sources where the PFO incidence for the general population is quoted at 25%. This is not aimed at divers, but the entire population. As divers are a subset, with no reasonable physical difference, except perhaps more obeisity within the diving population, the 25% should hold true for divers.

I would think a GUE guy would know this. George and Jarrod used to discuss this issue in the past...see techdiver and the cave list.

As to why there are not more DCS hits, there are different severities of PFO's, there is the strong potential for no gas release if there is no exertion--in other words, the PFO won;t have to cause a problem if there is no exertion, and it is not a bad PFO;
and shallow diving ( less than 60 feet) is not going to cause as much problem for divers with a PFO than deeper dives will.

I would submit that the dive industry, which includes DAN, would NOT want to eliminate 25% of all divers from the market. This will continue to be downplayed.
It cannot be allowed in tech diving, so tech diving populations will become very differrent from shallow diving populations, in respect to PFO's.

Regards,
Dan