Why so many casualties?

[jupitermermaid]

I blame a lot of the incidents on the diseases called "life" and "being human." People die, especially older, overweight, unfit people, whether they are divers or not. I see people diving that I wonder how they ever got their C-card and nothing ever happens to them. On the other hand, several experienced, "expert" (for lack of a better word) divers have died in this area that I know of and no one can figure out what happened. Many people who are older, overweight, and have health problems are apt to have a heart attack, whether they are underwater or on land. Being selfish, if I die of a heart attack, I'd like to have it happen while I'm enjoying a beautiful dive, rather than standing in line at Publix or cleaning my house.

Are all car accidents the result of lowered standard's in driver's ed training? People have accidents, most of which can be avoided. But that's why they are called "accidents." There are various reasons for them, and smart people have them, too, not just idiots. The same holds true for diving accidents. S**t happens.

 

[danvolker]

What nonsense - I suggest you get over to the DAN website and read some proper science on this issue. If it was remotely the problem you seem to think then why aren't 25% of divers regularly getting undeserved DCS hits?

I just did a google search using "pfo incidence in general population" . Not surprisingly, many medical sites were using the 25% average for the general population....try this yourself.

DAN is more misleading, by offering correlation data between DCS and PFO, in small populations, with severe under-reporting of pfo. Again, the dive industry has a dirty little secret....

 

[BarryNL]

I have seen many sources where the PFO incidence for the general population is quoted at 25%. This is not aimed at divers, but the entire population. As divers are a subset, with no reasonable physical difference, except perhaps more obeisity within the diving population, the 25% should hold true for divers.

I'm not disputing the incidence of PFO in the population, I'm disputing its clinical significance. For example, if the incidence of undeserved DCS hits is 1 in 50,000 dives for non-PFO divers and 1 in 25,000 for those with a PFO, then does this represent a risk to justify excluding those with a PFO from diving - and bear in mind that the lifetime risk of serious injury or death in a car accident is somewhere around 1 in 200.

Also consider that the number of incorrect diagnoses from the PFO test is in the single digit percentages and you start to see that the risk of PFO divers getting the all-clear and diving is huge in comparison to the actual risk of undeserved hits. If you're willing to risk an incorrect all-clear you should certainly be willing to risk diving with a PFO.

I would think a GUE guy would know this. George and Jarrod used to discuss this issue in the past...see techdiver and the cave list.

Unfortunately, GUE has a habit of producing thinking divers. I don't take stuff on blind faith from anyone; even George and JJ.

I would submit that the dive industry, which includes DAN, would NOT want to eliminate 25% of all divers from the market. This will continue to be downplayed.
It cannot be allowed in tech diving, so tech diving populations will become very differrent from shallow diving populations, in respect to PFO's.

Again, I don't see the statistical evidence to justify screening for PFOs, excluding PFO divers or to otherwise back up your views. Anyone who's prepared to take the far higher risk of getting in a car to drive to a dive site should not be worrying about PFOs.

 

[BarryNL]

I just did a google search using "pfo incidence in general population" . Not surprisingly, many medical sites were using the 25% average for the general population....try this yourself.

DAN is more misleading, by offering correlation data between DCS and PFO, in small populations, with severe under-reporting of pfo. Again, the dive industry has a dirty little secret....

Well, I'm always willing to change my views in light of new evidence. If you have any research you'd like to point me to I'll happily read it.

 

[KeysCuda]

This is a good point (I see how this can get tough), since I'm diving with my wife, there's no way she'd do that dive so we'd very very likely sack it.

After certification, We plan on doing some local quarry dives, then we're taking a trip to Couple's in Jamaica included is 2 dives per day 1st one to about 50-60ft 2nd to 25-35ft..Since diving is included- I'd have no problem calling a dive if either of us is uncomfortable...And from what I read, that resort is focused on safety and begginers.

By the time we get back we'll have ~15 easier dives in then we'll take AOW.

So hopefully we'll never be put into that position. I very much intend on staying within my training.

Sounds like you'll be fine. You realize this is a sport that can do you harm, and are willing to admit that there are things you have yet to learn or master. It'll come. Don't get ahead of yourself, take time to work into it, and you'll do well.

 

[shark_tamer]

What ever happened to screening log books prior to taking people out on dives?

Many Carribean dive centers will only ask you to present your C-card. Dive centers should be obligated to screen log books .. but again, there is never a scuba police around when you need one !!!

On the dive centers matter, I have a story on that !!!

This diver I know had left Montréal to go and work as a DM/instructor in the Carribean ... The good life we all hope for !!!

He quit the job after 6 months and came back to Montréal because he complained to his boss that the dive center should stop accepting underskilled or inexperience divers, and with so many " emergency ascents " occuring, it was only a matter of time before anything drastic happened.

His ex-boss replied that he was getting paid to bring people diving, and if he was not happy with that, he should be looking for another job

Now that's scary

 

[Teamcasa]

Bottom line is that diving is safer today and my Prof was right. The increase in the number of reported incidents is because we communicate more.

Along with our aging population and the number of new divers taking up the sport, significantly better communication = more reportable accidents. In addition, a reduction in training standards and the reducing number of veteran divers willing to mentor new divers, a rise in the raw number of accidents is inevitable. But I suspect that as a percentage of accidents per, divers are safer today than ever before.

 

[Walter]

Many Carribean dive centers will only ask you to present your C-card. Dive centers should be obligated to screen log books .. but again, there is never a scuba police around when you need one !!!

I sincerely hope that's a joke. In the Caribbean or elsewhere, why should a log book be required? Many very skilled and very experienced divers don't keep them. I keep mine up religiously, but that's my choice. I keep it for my personal use, not to prove myself to you or to some charter operation in the Caribbean. I gladly present my Silver Advanced card when ever asked. If I'm diving Nitrox, I show my Nitrox card. I understand that many cards have become meaningless because of lowered standards, but the Silver Advanced card is not meaningless and I shouldn't be required to have a log just because some morons are issuing cards to folks who cannot dive.

 

[driftwood]

Along with our aging population and the number of new divers taking up the sport, significantly better communication = more reportable accidents. In addition, a reduction in training standards and the reducing number of veteran divers willing to mentor new divers, a rise in the raw number of accidents is inevitable. But I suspect that as a percentage of accidents per, divers are safer today than ever before.

I can't quote a stat on this one, but I would expect the number of "veteran" divers to be on increase. From what I am seeing, there is a very nice number of "vets" that are much younger than me by 25 years and they are very active in mentoring. Might just be the crowd I dive with, great group of people.

 

[lazyturtle]

There just aren't that many dive accidents. I have no idea how it relates to other outdoor activities, but I'm certain there's less scuba injuries than skateboarding, skiing, mountain biking and hiking. I've been working the tropics for 12 years and I hear about a few injuries a year in every location I've worked (personally I've never been on a boat where someone was injured), but it's on a monthy basis rather than a weekly basis. Considering the # of people who dive daily (like here in Hawaii...100s of people diving every day)..I just don't think there's that many people out there getting injured, maybe a couple 100 per year.