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Why is this not the standard?

Discussion in 'Hogarthian Diving' started by NickPhillips, Aug 1, 2012.

  1. lowviz

    lowviz Solo Diver ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
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    Having a choice is everything. "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselvles" -A.L.
     
  2. TSandM

    TSandM Missed and loved by many. Rest in Peace

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    You can get around the adjustability issue -- there are several ways -- but all in all, your points are good ones, if you are talking about maintaining the status quo. Which we will do, if we keep training students in jackets, to donate their octos . . . The only way to change the way diving is done is to change it; I don't think you would want us to change it back to double-hose regulators :)
     
  3. DaleC

    DaleC Solo Diver

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    No, the price for them would go up and I would have to pay more. Keep em classified as old useless regs I say and send them my way for safe disposal :)
    I'm also willing to stand guard over any Churchill fins, old books with misleading information and notoriously dangerous RAID's, UDS-1's or ABS dive systems... just sayin.

    If I really had a magic wand and was inclined to use my powers to better the diving culture as it is today I would reduce the emphasis on destination diving, emphasize the club concept with active mentorship, wherein advancement is earned or demonstrated instead of purchased, and I would promote longer apprentices at moderate depths with basic gear before suggesting advanced or technical training/pursuits.

    Magic wand! oh wait, that's just my snorkel.
     
    koozemani likes this.
  4. gypsyjim

    gypsyjim I have an alibi ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Judging by the three vintage diver in our group on Bonaire in July, and another, local that joined them for several dives, double hose regs are making a return of sorts.

    When i started in '70 I chose a single hose, but at least1/2 my classmates were using double hose regs.

    I still love how they look, and someday, hopefully I will pick up a set in my price range.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  5. Trace Malinowski

    Trace Malinowski Cave Instructor

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    At the recreational level, DIR may be a superior philosophy. At the technical level, it may be an inferior one. As the training director of an agency, I would like to see GUE-F and UTD Essentials form the basis of most of the world's open water programs. But, the more advanced one's diving becomes and the more experience one gains, DIR often becomes an albatross rather than a solution.
     
    Phreatic Fanatic likes this.
  6. KWS

    KWS ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I AGREE WITH YOU for the most part, And i will say this.... The BPW idea is not that popular i think some one posed some stats of only a few percent dove bpw. When i started bpw on a single tank it was a unexplainable revolutionary change to how well the gear handled. Now diving doubles on an occasion i am starting to question the idea that bpw is the best way to go. Side mount is lot easier to get to the water as you can haul your rig is sections if needed and quick assemble at the water line. Another big plus i see is that sidemount has a major advantage in that you can pick the tanks to match your dive as they are just singles. I have double 85's. If i need a larger gas supply It is not just a tank swap and jump in. Although i know i will venture into sidemount in the future i will nevre abandon my bp/w and twin set for it. They both have thier place's. It is mighty appealing to surface and hand your tanks ( AS YOU WOULD A DECO BOTLE) to someone on the boat than climb out without 100# OF TANK weight on you.

     
  7. gypsyjim

    gypsyjim I have an alibi ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Trace, wouldn't it be like any other tool: where, if you reach a point where it no longer does the job you wish, you can set it aside for another tool that you then find better suited to your needs at the time, keeping the parts that work well for you, and dropping what does not?

    I know the short time I spent in the water with both you and Bob, and the changes I adopted in both gear and technique after that have greatly improved my diving, but I see no way such changes need be the last changes this diver ever makes. DIR can simply be another step in the development of a diver's skill base. I have witnessed an awful lot of changes in the sport since 1970, and expect that scuba has many more changes in it's future, as new minds and tools come on the scene.

    Having said that I remain, and expect to remain a recreational diver.
     
    TSandM likes this.
  8. Rick Murchison

    Rick Murchison Trusty Shellback Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

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    1. Among new divers, because most shops and most open water instructors and divemasters use jackets. Naturally the new diver is influenced to do the same.
    2. Among most recreational divers, because that's what they bought first (see #1) and they don't see any reason to buy anything else (if it ain't broke, don't fix it)
    3. Among instructors, because that's what the dive shop sells...
    4. Among us old, experienced divers, we need to modify the question. The question should be "Why would bp/wing not be a first choice for any dive?" And the answer is because the bp/wing isn't the BC I like most for every dive. Over the years I've accumulated two backplates (one DR aluminum and one Fred T Heavy steel) and four wings. I have a tropical BC, a big jacket, a regular jacket, a back-inflate BC, a DR Transpac and a couple of old backpacks (no BC). I still dive all of 'em... My absolute favorite rig for recreational diving is an old backpack with a steel 72, but that takes bathing suit warm water, which is rare... For other type dives and/or other conditions I use other rigs. For example, for OW instructing I like the big jacket 'cause it gives me the most leverage on the surface.
    For almost any technical dive I'll be carrying at least two tanks, so I either use a bp/wing with manifolded doubles or the Transpac with sidemounted tanks.
    I don't like diving a single with a backplate at all, so I don't :)
    Rick
     
    KWS likes this.
  9. KWS

    KWS ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

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    [​IMG] Originally Posted by NickPhillips[​IMG]... I am curious why bp/wings ... would not be a first choice for any diver? ...

    I have to agree with Rick in the previous post. I had never hearad of a bp/w untill i saw one on a boat. I had been curious about going doubles but had not figured out the hardware to support it. When i got my first it was a day night experience. Yes the wing put me face down but i learned to control surface inflation and such and it is no longer a problem. Trim is a cake walk. The advantages in freedom of movement from not having the bulky bladder wrapping around the waist makes it worth it on its own. From there, reading about hogarthian/dir took over and in many aspects made dive quality even better. I have to say that the bpw is not for everyone, nor should any aspect be. Unfortunately the majority of shops are REC shops and as such do not cater to the "TECH" gear, and customers dont know about it and believe the tech stuff is solely for tech divers. The bpw i think "in the publics eye" gets a bad rap because.. as poorly worded as this may be. "TECH" divers dive doubles. rec bc's dont support doubles so the bpw is a tech device and as such is expensive and overkill. In my opinion this assumnption could not be further from the truth. I really wish more about bpw's were covered in basic ow and aow courses..
     
  10. TSandM

    TSandM Missed and loved by many. Rest in Peace

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    I think, when someone doesn't know a whole lot and doesn't have a lot of skills, plugging into a well-oiled system can be very useful for rapid development. (As a friend of mine says, GUE Fundamentals can make a 30 dive diver LOOK like a 100 dive diver, but they still AREN'T a 100 dive diver . . . ) When you gain extensive experience and skill, and especially if you begin to push limits on what you do, you can look around and judge what you're doing and whether it's working for the direction you've ended up going.

    When I started diving the whole GUE system, I was enthralled because it seemed to work so much better than what I had been doing before -- and I still feel that way. Eventually, I figured out that some of the things I liked were virtually universal in the cave diving world -- the buoyancy control, the trim, the non-silting propulsion, the lights used for communication, and to some degree the team operation. I also learned that there were beautiful, careful, safe divers who used other systems and protocols, and I love diving with some of those people. To date, I have not found, nor do I at present contemplate any diving where the system I'm using would be an impediment, but I recognize that very deep dives, and penetration into very small cave, are not great places for the choices that GUE has made. (Never mind that they DO very deep dives, and do them safely; one can easily argue whether the way they do them is the best risk-benefit strategy for such dives, and I won't make those arguments.)

    At any rate, I wish the general recreational world learned better buoyancy, better trim, non-silting kicks, better situational awareness, and better buddy skills. The DIR system incorporates those things, which is why I think that kind of training is most useful for people who never intend to step outside the recreational range of diving.
     
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