Why is a Jacket BC better than a BP/W?

[lmorin]

If you'd like to add weight pockets to a backplate, you can if you'd like. Try to add weight pockets to a non weight integrated BC. You can't. You can also add a pocket. Try to remove a pocket from a jacket BC. You can't. I h8 pockets on a BC.

I know I can use a backplate with doubles or singles. MOST jackets cannot, and the ones that can are limited in what size doubles they can accommodate.

I think your comments exactly prove the point regarding one major reason why the vast majority of divers have no interest in BP/W and will never have. They do not want to take the time or responsibility of adding pockets; they want to purchase a BCD off the shelf with pockets. You hate pockets and imply that the ability to remove them from a jacket BCD is actually a negative feature; the vast majority of divers do not agree. Finally, you want a BCD that can accommodate doubles. The vast majority of divers only want to dive singles. It is an apples and oranges situation. There is no reason for either preference to change.

---------- Post added August 25th, 2014 at 01:44 PM ----------

On a side not I rekon this thread should be stickied and any new jacket V BP/W threads are just merged into it.

Again I don't really understand the pockets argument, I've never seen a jacket with useful pockets as they are usually restricted by the bladder and integrated weights.

Absolutely not true.

 

[dfx]

Not to dwell on this, but what I said is that I often don't use a belt or any other releasable weight for that matter. The 6 lbs. or so that the backplate/harness and other fixed gear itself weighs is enough for much of my warm-water diving where I wear minimal exposure protection.

Fair enough if you think that this is sufficient for you, but it's contrary to what agencies generally teach. When the excrement hits the rotating blade, the first thing they tell is to drop the weights. Personally I would never dive without any releasable weight. But that's a different issue and probably material for a different thread. It doesn't change the fact that if you want or need lead with a BP/W, you're either stuck with the belt or have to add separate weight integration, while with a jacket BCD it's already sorted out for you.

Having said that, though, I have to admit I'm not familiar with cold-water diving. Will the integrated pockets on jacket BCs hold as much as 20+ lbs. of lead?--or do those divers end up needing a belt anyway?

My BCD is quite simple and not generally considered a cold-water BCD (at least I don't think it is). It has 2 releasable pockets for 10 lb each, plus two trim pockets for (I think) 6 lb each.

I know you're aware that quick-release weight pockets CAN be added to a BP/W harness strap if desired. I don't think the extra two minutes needed to slip those pockets on a waist belt of a BP harness is measurably less "simple" than buying a jacket with weight integration, but that's a matter of perception. If two minutes of manual effort makes a difference to a diver, just what kind of diver is that person?

...

As with a lot of things, the answer is "it depends". My alpha dive buddy uses a BP/W with weight integrated pockets. She uses the Dive Rite Transplate harness ... there are at least three other manufacturers out there who make backplate harnesses with weight integrated pockets, including Halcyon. For the traveler there are BP/W rigs on the market that less than a lot of BCDs and pack into a smaller area. And there are many singles wings on the market today that don't require an STA ... many of those have been on the market for at least a decade.

Well you see, these are the kind of responses that you get from BP/W advocates when confronted with the common issues with that setup. You can do this and you can do that, there's this solution and there's that option, this particular one here doesn't have that problem and if you add this part over there then that lets you do that. Yeah, sure. Or you can get a jacket BCD which already does everything you want and you wouldn't have these shortcomings to begin with.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Fair enough if you think that this is sufficient for you, but it's contrary to what agencies generally teach. When the excrement hits the rotating blade, the first thing they tell is to drop the weights. Personally I would never dive without any releasable weight. But that's a different issue and probably material for a different thread. It doesn't change the fact that if you want or need lead with a BP/W, you're either stuck with the belt or have to add separate weight integration, while with a jacket BCD it's already sorted out for you.

... not all jacket-style BCDs are weight-integrated ... not all BP/W's require weight-belts ... you're making generalizations where they're not warranted, and that makes your arguments less valid than you believe them to be. Furthermore, some weight-integration systems are better than others. Not all are as reliable as you might like them to be ... as attested by the fact that it's not uncommon to find weight pockets laying on the bottom at popular dive sites. Accidentally losing a weight pocket out of a BCD isn't my idea of a "feature" ...

Well you see, these are the kind of responses that you get from BP/W advocates when confronted with the common issues with that setup. You can do this and you can do that, there's this solution and there's that option, this particular one here doesn't have that problem and if you add this part over there then that lets you do that. Yeah, sure. Or you can get a jacket BCD which already does everything you want and you wouldn't have these shortcomings to begin with.

I'm not advocating a BP/W ... it's a practical choice for some people and not so much of one for others. What I'm advocating is that you educate yourself before making arguments one way or the other. People who pass along stereotypes and misinformation don't make a very credible case. Different types of gear are more applicable in some environments than in others. Some configurations suit personal preferences better than others. I see choices as a good thing. Sure, you can get a jacket BCD with everything you want ... but more often than not it will also come with some things you may not want. Every piece of equipment you can buy comes with advantages and disadvantages. The secret to happiness in gear purchases is understanding what those are and buying the one that comes with the most advantages and the least disadvantages based on your personal preferences and the type of diving you want to do. The BP/W gives you the flexibility to make choices that maximize your advantages and minimize your drawbacks ... if you're the type of person who wishes to put the effort into configuring your equipment to best suit your needs. On the other hand, if you're the type who prefers to let someone else make those decisions for you, then a jacket BCD may be a better choice for you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Lorenzoid]

I don't want to be seen as a BP/W "advocate" either. I have started to post in these BP/W vs. jacket threads because I like to describe how I slowly warmed to the idea and overcame my skepticism. And boy was I a skeptic! Before I switched over, my thinking was similar to what's been said here by those who prefer jacket BCs. I was intimidated by the idea of ordering one and putting it together. A "crotch strap"--is that some kind of S&M gear?! Aluminum or steel?--is this going to require a degree in metallurgy?! I saw no need to change--my jacket had no shortcomings as far as the diving I was doing was concerned. My wife and I made the switch at the same time. She went almost kicking and screaming. But now that we're accustomed to our BP/Ws, neither of us can see ourselves ever going back to a jacket. I'd dive a jacket if that's all that was available, but at this point my BP/W just feels right to me. I know by feel where everything is and what everything is, because I put it there, and in some instances, like the pocket, I chose exactly what kind of pocket I wanted. If I pick up someone else's BP/W, I will know by feel where everything is. Incidentally, my wife and I have identical rigs--every component would be interchangeable should there be some need to swap something.

It was far easier to put together and order than the reading on SB might suggest. Aluminum or steel?--the choice (~4 lbs. difference) only matters if you are trying to dial your weighting in with precision. If economy is of primary importance to you and you see a fantastic deal on one or the other, go for it. The size of the wing? Again, there aren't that many options if you're diving a single tank, and the choice among those only really matters if you're looking for precision performance. If these things don't matter to you, then just pick one, just as you might just pick a jacket. Few people look at the lift rating of their jacket, but it's always specified. People who DO want certain performance characteristics do look at the lift rating when buying a jacket. No different for a wing.

I don't understand all the distaste for "customizing" a BP/W. People have no issue ordering a new car from the dealer with certain options that appeal to them. People have no issue checking boxes online to get stuff in their desired size, color, etc. Why is ordering a BP/W different? With customer service from some dealers getting so good that they will even assemble the BP/W for you before shipping it to you, I just don't understand the resistance.

 

[rhwestfall]

Or you can get a jacket BCD which already does everything you want and you wouldn't have these shortcomings to begin with.

Just don't hold your breath it fits the way it should, or the placement of things are right for you....

 

[mrdre]

Automobile enthusiasts spend a lot of time in the garage customizing their cars, not because they have to, but because the love it. I love messing with diving equipment and customizing it, so that's another point for BP/W from me. People who don't like customizing anything can just order the BCD with "everything" and dive like that.

I don't think there is any sense to "advocate" BP/W or jacket. All I can "advocate" is to try both (actually all three - including back inflate without backplate), learn pros and cons and pick the one you like. For recreational dives it really doesn't matter much from the safety point of view.

The only thing I see is jackets are cheaper and they are easier for newbie divers, that's why I think many dive shops prefer them for their students. But any newbie diver learns how to handle BP/W in 15-20 minutes in swimming pool, so I don't think it's an issue. The price remains though......

 

[flots am]

Having said that, though, I have to admit I'm not familiar with cold-water diving. Will the integrated pockets on jacket BCs hold as much as 20+ lbs. of lead?--or do those divers end up needing a belt anyway?

. . .
I know you're aware that quick-release weight pockets CAN be added to a BP/W harness strap if desired. I don't think the extra two minutes needed to slip those pockets on a waist belt of a BP harness is measurably less "simple" than buying a jacket with weight integration, but that's a matter of perception. If two minutes of manual effort makes a difference to a diver, just what kind of diver is that person?

DS divers in very cold water typically use a weight harness because 30+lbs on a weightbelt becomes a problem. Unless you have a small waist and a big butt, the weightbelt tends to follow gravity and free itself.

Note for anybody with a harness: I now pull the pocket ripcords regularly to make sure they actually work. Some harnesses can take a "set" and become unexpectedly un-ditchable. I started doing this after my last harness needed two people to ditch it for me. On land. With one person having a knee on my waist and the other holding me up. And then the handle ripped off when it finally let loose.

Later I found out that DUI had a recall. If you have pockets (any brand), I'd suggest trying to actually ditch them now and then to make sure it's actually possible.

flots.

 

[dfx]

... not all jacket-style BCDs are weight-integrated ... not all BP/W's require weight-belts ... you're making generalizations where they're not warranted, and that makes your arguments less valid than you believe them to be. Furthermore, some weight-integration systems are better than others. Not all are as reliable as you might like them to be ... as attested by the fact that it's not uncommon to find weight pockets laying on the bottom at popular dive sites. Accidentally losing a weight pocket out of a BCD isn't my idea of a "feature" ...

Normally I value your posts quite highly, but... come on, really? "If you want to get rid of the weight belt," how is that a generalization? I don't know how many times I've posted that now. If you don't like WI and/or prefer a belt, then please use it. If you're OK with diving only with non-ditchable weight, please go for it. But many of us need or want ditchable weight, hate the belt and want WI. Jacket BCDs have that problem solved. Obviously you'd get one with WI if you're part of that group, derp. BP/W doesn't have that problem solved, only other stuff you add on to it solves it.

I don't understand all the distaste for "customizing" a BP/W. People have no issue ordering a new car from the dealer with certain options that appeal to them. People have no issue checking boxes online to get stuff in their desired size, color, etc. Why is ordering a BP/W different? With customer service from some dealers getting so good that they will even assemble the BP/W for you before shipping it to you, I just don't understand the resistance.

No resistance, but also no use for it. If I needed or wanted to customize my rig, then BP/W it is. But I don't. I have a BCD which is back inflate, has enough attachment points, is weight integrated, fits, has pockets, packs nicely for travel and was quite inexpensive. So why bother?

 

[Bob DBF]

A "crotch strap"--is that some kind of S&M gear?!

Na, jacket BC's used to come with them standard. Now all the new Velcro, buckles, and stuff, the jackets grab you hard enough that it is no longer needed, most of the time.



Bob
----------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[kayakguy]

I wonder how many people would stick with a jacket after trying bp/w. If it works for you great but I find jackets confining, limiting, and bulky.

Not to mention the bp/w allow fantastic trim and low drag characteristics.

Yep put me in the bp/w camp.