Why is a Jacket BC better than a BP/W?

[mike.chuanshi]

It must be hell being a shop owner being stuck in the middle, abandoned by divers learning about BP/W, and dominated by totalitarianist jacket manufacturers.

That's definitely the impression that I got. Fortunately, the same instructor had a talk with the shop owner after a bunch of us said we wanted BP/Ws, and shortly thereafter they started carrying a few different setups. Not enough IMHO, but it's a start...

 

[Curtis C]

I started out diving with a store that made you buy pretty much everything right from the start. I wish that I had more opportunity to try different BC's before I bought one. Partially my fault and partially the stores taking advantage. Back then BP/W were not anywhere that I remember. Weight integration was brand new too. I dove with my jacket style BC for years. I always disliked it. I tried other makes later on, but didn't find one I liked enough to replace it with. Large sized were too big. the next size down were too small. Then I got on diving with my work and using all issued gear. I still remember my first BP/W dive I did. I found it so much better than my old jacket style I used recreationally. It fit perfectly and buoyancy with it was effortless. I pretty much stopped diving recreationally for the last ten years. I just recently decided that I was going to start diving for fun again. So I updated a lot of my gear. One of the first things I got was a wing. I've heard people say here that it is only a vocal minority that dive with a BP/W here on scubaboard. I don't know that I'm vocal. I will say for me that it is a far superior BC. I can understand the people that talk about most diving stores not having them. Most of the stores where I live don't have a big selection. However its not the case with all of them. A dive store in a neighbouring Province has a huge selection. If you look at their instructors they all use BP/W's. They have good prices, are very helpful, so they are my new dive store (even though they are not close).

So for me the BP/W is the only way I would go after diving one.

 

[Ste Wart]

I did an impromptu holiday dive last year, far away from my BP/W. Rented all the kit, standard jacket, standard, regs, light fins. Still got wet, still got horizontal, still went diving.


Just go diving. Don't worry what everyone else is doing.

 

[rhwestfall]

So, why then does a shop that does technical diving, up sell BC's to its new divers? I've watched in horror as the "doesn't this look just uncomfortable?" BS is said to a prospective diver who was looking an the lower cost of a BP/W in the shop (I do not use the shop anymore, despite the large selection of technical gear). Simply stated, the profits are in selling BC's. You have to buy the whole thing, and replace the whole thing (for the most part). Likely can't get parts/pieces. There are yearly changes made to make the sales appeal, and no cross over in parts, even between same brands. CASH COW!!!!!

I wish there was more attention to proper fit.... that is the real plus of a BP/W in the recreational diving realm.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I'm gonna echo the "simpler" point here. It's one piece of gear you buy, it serves its purpose, it does its job. With a BP/W you have to worry about which kind of backplate, what size wing and is it compatible, which harness goes with that, do you need an STA, what about pockets, and how do I get rid of that horrible weight belt. If you don't need the versatility offered by a BP/W setup, then there's nothing you gain by increasing the complexity of your gear.

When I purchased my first BP/W a year or so ago, I didn't have to "worry" about anything. I told Tobin at DSS what kind of diving I do, and he told me what kind of plate and size of wing I need. In retrospect, these "decisions" are pretty obvious--if I buy another I won't need help. The DSS system is STA-less, and the harness is pretty universal. When it was time to order, I clicked a button to order the complete system. I'm sure the HOG dealers and others would similarly help a newbie with these relatively trivial decisions. It may sound like there are decisions to make--that the rig is infinitely configurable--but if you know what kind of diving you do then it becomes immediately apparent what you need. Just pick a brand and order a complete rig--simple. Once I had it assembled and adjusted, I never needed to mess with it--just like you say of a jacket BC, it is "one piece of gear you buy, it serves its purpose, it does its job."

As for weights, for my warm-water diving I can achieve a so-called "balanced rig" without any weight beyond the inherent weight of the backplate/harness. When I dive a thicker wetsuit, I can add a Mako rubber belt. I don't find it uncomfortable. I've been pleasantly surprised at how well a BP/W is suited for single-tank warm-water diving in a 3-5 mm suit.

I added a pocket on the right side of the waist belt. One large pocket is plenty for me. I suppose one could add a pocket to the other side if they don't adhere to DIR. How much simpler could it get than to slip a pocket through a strap?

I can't believe I have joined the BP/W evangelists, but here I am.

On the original question, as I said in a post above, the only instance in which I can see a jacket BC being preferable to a BP/wing might be in very warm water where there are long shore entries to walk to/from and the diver is wearing no wetsuit or something very very thin. Lack of padding is just a fact.

 

[dfx]

Just because you hate weight belts doesn't make using one more complicated. I actually disliked weight belts too before I tried a Mako rubber belt. I would actually argue that the belt is simpler that an integrated system. It can't get any easier that the 6 pounds that my BP adds.

I didn't say that using a weight belt is more complicated. I said that if you want to get rid of the weight belt (which many people do), then it is more complicated (actually I said less simple) to do so with a BP/W. If you prefer a belt then by all means, dive with a belt.

Pockets. Before my BP/W I dove a Zeagle Stiletto . It does have pockets but I challenge anybody to actually use them wearing thick gloves. Now I have a LM glue-on pocket on my wetsuit. Easy to operate and spacious.

Guess what, the majority of divers are warm-water vacation divers and don't use thick gloves. Also you're missing the point, it's the same as above: If you want pockets, the jacket has already taken care of it, while with a BP/W have you to compensate for the lack of them by adding them somewhere else. That adds complexity.

But yes, cold water diving is definitely a situation where BP/W becomes more attractive.

Try to remove a pocket from a jacket BC. You can't. I h8 pockets on a BC.

I'm not sure why a piece of gear having a feature that you don't want would bother you so much that you want to remove it. But whatever floats your boat I guess.

Single tank adaptor. Not needed on DSS and many others.

Good for you and DSS. The funny thing is that BP/W is often advertised as a "one fits all" solution: get one and you'll never have to get another BCD again. That's just not true. A BP/W isn't a single piece of gear, it's a combination of multiple pieces that make up the BCD. And any one such combination is just as good as catering to different dive situations as any one jacket BCD is. You can as much end up with the wrong BP/W setup as you can end up with the wrong style jacket. The difference is that the variety among jacket BCDs is quite small, with most of them sharing similar feature sets and the differences being mostly in the details. With BP/W on the other hand, the combinations you can come up with are virtually limitless, with some parts being incompatible to other parts, with the properties and features of some combinations being vastly different than those of other combinations. It's great if you need this kind of flexibility, not so great if you're just a boring vacation diver. If you still go for a BP/W, you better know exactly what you want and what you need, or have someone who's familiar with all the details assist you. No such problems with a jacket, thus, more complex. (I'm saying complex now because people seem to like to misunderstand "simple" as meaning minimalistic. But I'm sure someone will misunderstand "complex" too.)

Initial adjustment. You got a point here. Maybe. It took me an hour to assemble and adjust it initially. Now I just grab it, tighten the tank straps, close the waist bucket and go diving. The Jacket will require adjustment of shoulder straps and cumberbund every time you put it

No idea what kind of jacket BCD you're talking about, but I never have to adjust anything on mine. Initial adjustment took me like 5 minutes total and now I just put it on and close the straps.

---------- Post added August 25th, 2014 at 09:03 AM ----------

When I purchased my first BP/W a year or so ago, I didn't have to "worry" about anything. I told Tobin at DSS what kind of diving I do, and he told me what kind of plate and size of wing I need. In retrospect, these "decisions" are pretty obvious--if I buy another I won't need help. The DSS system is STA-less, and the harness is pretty universal. When it was time to order, I clicked a button to order the complete system. I'm sure the HOG dealers and others would similarly help a newbie with these relatively trivial decisions. It may sound like there are decisions to make--that the rig is infinitely configurable--but if you know what kind of diving you do then it becomes immediately apparent what you need. Just pick a brand and order a complete rig--simple. Once I had it assembled and adjusted, I never needed to mess with it--just like you say of a jacket BC, it is "one piece of gear you buy, it serves its purpose, it does its job."

Sure, that makes it somewhat equivalent to a jacket BCD. Except that you got no pockets and no weight integration, you have to add those. It may not be very difficult to do that, but there's one thing that is definitely simpler: not having to do that at all.

 

[Lost down under]

On a side not I rekon this thread should be stickied and any new jacket V BP/W threads are just merged into it.

Again I don't really understand the pockets argument, I've never seen a jacket with useful pockets as they are usually restricted by the bladder and integrated weights.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I didn't say that using a weight belt is more complicated. I said that if you want to get rid of the weight belt (which many people do), then it is more complicated (actually I said less simple) to do so with a BP/W. If you prefer a belt then by all means, dive with a belt.

Not to dwell on this, but what I said is that I often don't use a belt or any other releasable weight for that matter. The 6 lbs. or so that the backplate/harness and other fixed gear itself weighs is enough for much of my warm-water diving where I wear minimal exposure protection. I have trim pockets on the cam bands if I need a couple more pounds or want to play with horizontal trim. But I might agree with you that if a BP/W diver needs a considerable amount of lead--such that some of it will need to be ditchable--then it is going to be difficult to avoid a belt or harness or something of that sort. Having said that, though, I have to admit I'm not familiar with cold-water diving. Will the integrated pockets on jacket BCs hold as much as 20+ lbs. of lead?--or do those divers end up needing a belt anyway?

I know you're aware that quick-release weight pockets CAN be added to a BP/W harness strap if desired. I don't think the extra two minutes needed to slip those pockets on a waist belt of a BP harness is measurably less "simple" than buying a jacket with weight integration, but that's a matter of perception. If two minutes of manual effort makes a difference to a diver, just what kind of diver is that person?

I liked the idea that I could shop for my pocket separately. I chose one with a zippered closure and of a specific size and some other features that appealed to me. In this respect, the idea of modularity--the ability to shop separately for separate components--suits my personality. I suppose there are people who don't care what kind of pocket comes with their jacket BC and don't want to have to think about it. To each his own.

 

[PfcAJ]

I'm not sure why a piece of gear having a feature that you don't want would bother you so much that you want to remove it. But whatever floats your boat I guess.

Why take something with me in the water that I don't want or don't need?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I told Tobin at DSS what kind of diving I do, and he told me what kind of plate and size of wing I need.

That can be either good or bad, depending on the diver. For those who need to be told, it's a service. For those who have a good idea of what they want, and why they want it, it can be bad. I know for a fact that Tobin has lost a lot of business because he can't make a distinction between the two. Experienced divers don't need to be told what kind of plate and size of wing they need ... and they often object to someone else telling them what their "needs" are.

Not all potential customers are created equal ... the smart business person needs to know when to talk and when to listen ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added August 25th, 2014 at 09:35 AM ----------

Your points are well taken, except for the one about liveaboards. I'm quite surprised to hear that. I dive liveaboards almost exclusively these days, and I've seen a BP/W diver on nearly every one I've been on. (And not just mine, either!

I've seen plenty of backplate rigs on a liveaboard ... I guess it depends on where you go and who you go with. This is from the Peace, on a 3-day trip to the north Channel Islands a few years back.

I'm heading to the Red Sea in a few weeks, and pretty much everyone on the trip will be in a backplate except me ... I'll be bringing my sidemount rig (Nomad) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)


---------- Post added August 25th, 2014 at 09:42 AM ----------

Perhaps you have a different definition of "simple". I hate weight belts. The jacket BCD takes care of that, your BP/W doesn't. I also like pockets, again the jacket BCD takes care of that, your BP/W doesn't. I know I can use the jacket BCD with a single tank, can I use your BP/W with that or do I need an adapter? What kind of backplate is that, will it be too heavy to travel with? etc...

As with a lot of things, the answer is "it depends". My alpha dive buddy uses a BP/W with weight integrated pockets. She uses the Dive Rite Transplate harness ... there are at least three other manufacturers out there who make backplate harnesses with weight integrated pockets, including Halcyon. For the traveler there are BP/W rigs on the market that less than a lot of BCDs and pack into a smaller area. And there are many singles wings on the market today that don't require an STA ... many of those have been on the market for at least a decade.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added August 25th, 2014 at 09:44 AM ----------

And depending on the brand of jacket BC, you can also dive doubles.

There is no BCD on the market ... backplate or otherwise ... that will dive both singles and doubles well. It has to do with the fundamental difference in "footprint" between a single cylinder and double. In order to accommodate both, compromises must be made in the air cell that allow the accommodation of both configurations, and in the process accommodate neither very efficiently.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)