Why have a zipper on a wing, if you can't........ (warning a longish rant follows)

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But still as the OP asked, why in the world would you have a wing cover with a zipper IF the darned thing can't be serviced by the end user? If it was meant to be serviced by the manufacturer why not have a sewed seam in the cover material? Or just make the wings more like rec BC's so no one will be tempted to fix them their selves period? As a prime example my Apeks wing doesn't have a user serviceable bladder but yet it has a zippered cover.

On a side note my DSS SS backplate is a tank!!!! The thing will out live me and future generations to boot. B.
 
But still as the OP asked, why in the world would you have a wing cover with a zipper IF the darned thing can't be serviced by the end user? If it was meant to be serviced by the manufacturer why not have a sewed seam in the cover material? Or just make the wings more like rec BC's so no one will be tempted to fix them their selves period? As a prime example my Apeks wing doesn't have a user serviceable bladder but yet it has a zippered cover.

On a side note my DSS SS backplate is a tank!!!! The thing will out live me and future generations to boot. B.

Getting the bladder into the wing shell and sewing it shut is not a simple proposition. It *might* seem simple, but keep in mind that all the seams on a well made wing are first sewn with the material "finish" side in. Then the wing is turned finish side out and the seams are top stitched. It's a bit like making a pillow, somewhere, somehow you have to get the stuffing in and close the pillow.

The DSS wings that are sewn shut, i.e. without a zipper, are a pretty good trick to produce. :wink: And they require a very skilled operator who can avoid sewing through the bladder for the final step.

Zippers can make assembly of the wing easier, particularly with a full circle wing.

You do of course realize that you are making the very points I've been making for years concerning the utility of zippers in wings.

The fact remains that most users don't want to replace the bladder themselves, they lack the tools and expertise. Same for most dive shops. That means even the wings we produce with zippers are usually returned **by choice** to have us service them.

It's pretty hard for a dive shop, who may only work on wings very occasionally, to have the small parts, and the skills to do a bladder replacement and actually turn a profit.

Our staff OTOH, can do the job pretty quickly, has access to grommets and seals etc. if needed, and the customer gets a factory assembled and tested wing.

Are their divers that are qualified to do the job themselves? No doubt, but it's next to impossible for a manufacturer to be able to identify who is and who is not.

Are there divers (and dive shops!) that really shouldn't attempt a wing repair? Yup. Several hours of phone support and 2 dozen emails later, plus a returned brand new freshly ruined bladder is something one need not repeat too often before bladder sales become very limited.

Tobin
 
You do of course realize that you are making the very points I've been making for years concerning the utility of zippers in wings.

Tobin[/QUOTE]

Sorry Tobin I did not realize that. I haven't read through all of your 5800+ posts :D. But thanks for the info it makes sense. Yeah a lot of people are DIY'ers but most prolly shouldn't be. I'm a trained Glock and AR15 armorer and I have seen a few things that a person should not see on a firearm. So I can appreciate where you are coming from sir. B.
 
But still as the OP asked, why in the world would you have a wing cover with a zipper IF the darned thing can't be serviced by the end user?

I have had several wing covers fixed by a seamstress which was only possible because of the zipper.

So there's that.
 
The fact remains that most users don't want to replace the bladder themselves, they lack the tools and expertise. Same for most dive shops. That means even the wings we produce with zippers are usually returned **by choice** to have us service them.

It's pretty hard for a dive shop, who may only work on wings very occasionally, to have the small parts, and the skills to do a bladder replacement and actually turn a profit.

What skills and tools? I've removed the bladder from my DRIS 27LB and put it back in. I didn't need any tools to do this and it only took a few minutes.
 
What skills and tools? I've removed the bladder from my DRIS 27LB and put it back in. I didn't need any tools to do this and it only took a few minutes.

1) So we should now assume that's possible with all makes of wings?

2) I can direct you to any number of threads where divers aren't sure how to change a hose on a regulator. People have differing skill sets.

Tobin
 
1) So we should now assume that's possible with all makes of wings?

Silly goose...... only with the "makes" who's manufacturers make it possible.

---------- Post added July 20th, 2013 at 06:26 PM ----------

1)
2) I can direct you to any number of threads where divers aren't sure how to change a hose on a regulator. People have differing skill sets.Tobin


So, if you were a regulator manufacturer, you would have them send it back to you, or the factory?
 
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Silly goose...... only with the "makes" who's manufacturers make it possible.

---------- Post added July 20th, 2013 at 06:26 PM ----------




So, if you were a regulator manufacturer, you would have them send it back to you, or the factory?

Design involves choices. There re two basic systems for bladder through fittings. One involves a three piece assembly that mechanically clamps the bladder to the wing shell, the other uses a urethane fitting that is RF welded to the bladder film.

Both have advantages and disadvantages.

The three piece approach requires tools, and bit of knowledge to install. However this approach robustly fixes the bladder to the shell, and allows for the fittings to replaced independently from the bladder. This can be useful if the fitting are damaged, cross threaded etc.

The welded fitting approach can make bladder replacement easier, and reduce the assembly labor for the manufacturer, but it also requires 2 additional critical RF welds (to attach the fittings) Any issues with the fittings requires the entire bladder be replaced. Welding thinnish urethane films to much thicker molded urethane fittings can be tricky. There have been wing recalls due to these fittings failing at the welds.


Good quality products can be produced with either approach, it's a matter of understanding the compromises being made.


Tobin
 
To the OP.
I carry AP's tear aid in my save a dive kit. - A.P.Diving Direct

It is exactly what you require (assuming you don't have an RF welder "!") & is easy to use.
I have repaired a couple of inner wings using this kit 4 years ago - still going strong. I found that cutting the material into circles meant that the corners / edges were a lot less likely to lift.
 

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