Why have a zipper on a wing, if you can't........ (warning a longish rant follows)

[LeadTurn_SD]

..... Obtain a replacement bladder for said wing, without returning it to the manufacturer???

This is the Buoyancy Compensator forum, so I thought I'd "vent" my current frustration at my inability to perform what should be an exceedingly simple DIY repair: replacing the bladder on a single tank wing.....

Well, actually on two single tank wings. They failed to hold air when orally inflating them during testing for a weekend shore dive. The air leaked out faster than I could blow it in.

A simultaneous failure of both of our wings. Seriously, what is the likelihood of that????

I removed the bladders from the wings, and found that in each case a section of bladder seam had failed...the bonding or welding of the seam had separated. In one case the separation was several inches long.

Yikes. That is more than a little Aquaseal can fix.

Because these wings are almost 5 years old I am going to withhold the brand name of the "victims" to "protect the innocent" . I honestly don't regard the failures as gross manufacturing defects because these wings are not "brand new".... It may be a warranty issue, or maybe not... And maybe it was "operator error" on my part.

I'm going to let the manufacturer determine whether they should replace the wings, or if I need to buy new ones. Either outcome is "ok".

I only wanted to obtain a pair of bladders so I could quickly repair the two wings and go diving.

Anyway, after discovering our two wing bladders had seen their last dives, I emailed two well-known online retailers that carried these wings in the naïve belief that I could just buy a couple replacement bladders and get the mailed in time to go diving the following weekend...

But sadly the short answer was NO.

My understanding is that ALL the major wing brands have stopped supplying their dealers with replacement bladders.

If any manufacturers are reading this, please feel free to correct me. But this was what two of your dealers told me.

The dealers recommended I contact the manufacturer directly. So I did this, hoping I could simply send a credit card number, check, cash, or my first born child, and the manufacturer would send us the new bladders.

You see, I still had visions of a "quick repair".

That was not to be.

"Send us the wings, and we will go from there" was the prompt and helpful email reply (actually super prompt, and the manufacturer has been great so far).

So it has been a few weeks now. The manufacturer is small, and probably pretty busy, and "returns" like this are a pain in the butt to deal with. I'm confident it will be handled properly, but still....

But why can't I just buy a replacement bladder for my single tank wing?

Rant off.

Best wishes.

 

[flots am]

But why can't I just buy a replacement bladder for my single tank wing?

A better question is "Why should you have to buy a replacement bladder?"

Although I suspect it's more difficult to manufacture, the tech companies could take a page from the bigger rec companies like SCUBAPro. There is no separate bladder, the BC is made out of a single layer of airtight fabric. I beleive it's ultrasonically welded, although I could be wrong. These last until the BC fails from old age and the fabric is simply worn out.

They tend to last longer because there's no space for sand or grit to get trapped between the shell and the bladder.

flots

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

A better question is "Why should you have to buy a replacement bladder?"

Although I suspect it's more difficult to manufacture, the tech companies could take a page from the bigger rec companies like SCUBAPro. There is no separate bladder, the BC is made out of a single layer of airtight fabric. I beleive it's ultrasonically welded, although I could be wrong. These last until the BC fails from old age and the fabric is simply worn out.

They tend to last longer because there's no space for sand or grit to get trapped between the shell and the bladder.

flots

Interesting points.

We've gone back to our old jacket BC's until I can replace the wings (actually, to the old jacket BC I'm wearing in my avatar picture).... and like you say, it does seem like those old single layer jackets will probably continue to work until they fall apart from old age....

By comparison, the wings themselves still look brand new, but their inner bladders failed for some reason... age, maybe I didn't flush them out often enough or thoroughly enough.... whatever.... but they received more or less the same level of care (or neglect!) as the jacket BC's, and the old "poodle jackets" are still diving....


Best wishes.

 

[PfcAJ]

I'm really interested in the brand of the wings. A failure like that can be a show stopper on an expensive trip, and a seam/weld failure is a real big deal. Please PM me if you're not comfortable getting it out in the open.

thx

 

[g1138]

Did you ever rinse the inside of the bladder and the inside of the shell as well? I used to forget the ladder until I unzipped my wing one day out of curiosity. Lots of salt and grit left over between the shell and bladder.

What I do now is soak the entire wing in a barrel full of water, slightly deflated, then deflate the wing while it's in water so it sits at the bottom of the barrel and the entire shell fills (when you stop seeing little bubble escaping the material)
When you take it out, inflate and you should see all the water and grit drain out the drain holes. Then all that's left is to rinse the inside of the bladder.

Alternatively you can unzip and take a hose to the inside. Or just fill through the drain holes. Just keep in mind that water is heavy, so be sure to support the bulk of your wing when filling. Better to fill a little and slosh it out.

 

[Tortuga68]

My understanding is that ALL the major wing brands have stopped supplying their dealers with replacement bladders

I couldn't say what the situation is today since I haven't checked, but I purchased a replacement bladder from a Halcyon dealer within the last 12 months. From my experience their dealers don't list them on their websites, but you can (could) still buy them on request. OMS defintely still list replacement bladders for sale on their website

If you would name the manufacturer you're talking about we could avoid further similar posts. I can certainly understand your point about why bother having a zipper, I think that eliminates DSS so we must be pretty close to guessing who it is anyway

Although I suspect it's more difficult to manufacture, the tech companies could take a page from the bigger rec companies like SCUBAPro. There is no separate bladder, the BC is made out of a single layer of airtight fabric. I beleive it's ultrasonically welded, although I could be wrong. These last until the BC fails from old age and the fabric is simply worn out. They tend to last longer because there's no space for sand or grit to get trapped between the shell and the bladder

Speaking again specifically about Halcyon, they went away from this design to split bladder/shell design. I don't have any personal experience but the older (Pioneer) 'single-layer' wings certainly have a reputation (confirmed by the few people I know that have dived them) of suffering pinch leaks pretty easily, which then can't be repaired/patched (aka bicycle tube repair) like an internal bladder can. Myself, I would prefer a dual-layer wing i.e. seperate cover & bladder (assuming you could buy the cover and bladder separately) for that reason alone

 

[cool_hardware52]

I can certainly understand your point about why bother having a zipper, I think that eliminates DSS so we must be pretty close to guessing who it is anyway

Ah, well no. DSS sells some wings with zippers and others without.

Tobin

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Did you ever rinse the inside of the bladder and the inside of the shell as well? I used to forget the ladder until I unzipped my wing one day out of curiosity. Lots of salt and grit left over between the shell and bladder.

What I do now is soak the entire wing in a barrel full of water, slightly deflated, then deflate the wing while it's in water so it sits at the bottom of the barrel and the entire shell fills (when you stop seeing little bubble escaping the material)
When you take it out, inflate and you should see all the water and grit drain out the drain holes. Then all that's left is to rinse the inside of the bladder.

Alternatively you can unzip and take a hose to the inside. Or just fill through the drain holes. Just keep in mind that water is heavy, so be sure to support the bulk of your wing when filling. Better to fill a little and slosh it out.

I'm meticulous with cleaning and maintaining my regs (service my own), but less so with our BC's and wings. I sometimes soak them over night, but more typically give a quick rinse with a hose, run fresh water through the inflator, slosh the water around inside the bladder or BC a bit, and drain as much as I can out the dump valve, then store with the wing or BC partially inflated until the next time I use it.

Insides of the wings were just as clean as outsides.... no sand to speak of in the areas I shore dive, and this is Hawaii, very clean water, no grit.... but nope, I don't unzip the wings unless I am looking for a leak.

So I'm very happy to consider that the wing failures are caused by "operator error" on my part, and not the fault of the wing/bladder itself.

My rant is just about the inability to quickly buy a replacement bladder.

Best wishes.

 

[cool_hardware52]

A few general points regarding wings:

I've seen some pretty hammered wings, and I've *never* seen a wing damaged from sand or salt inside the bladder or between the inner bladder and the outer shell. Urethane is very abrasion resistant. The vast majority of damaged bladders are the result of pinch flats.

Weld failures (seams) can occur as urethane ages. Unfortunately there isn't much a manufacturer can do to predict this. A welding schedule (welding machine parameters) that produce a very good weld, that passes all tests, may still see some bladders that fail at the seams, typically after many years. I suspect that exposure to consistent high temps increases the chances of such a failure, but I don't have enough good data to be certain.

Salt / sand in the bladder does not cause welded seams to "unzip" I do clean my wings and encourage other users to do so. Sand can eventually cut the stitching in the outer shells, and having nasty moldy things growing in my bladder doesn't doesn't appeal to me. Rinsing the wing also helps to keep the OPV and power inflator working.

Should wing manufacturers sell bladders "on demand"? Installation of a bladder does require special tools, and a bit of skill. There are any number of failures, some of which may not evidence themselves immediately, that can result from improper assembly. That fact has always made me reluctant to sell bladders.

In addition it is all too common that a bladder alone is not the solution. Often one needs to replace parts of the fittings, or a gasket etc., and this may not be apparent until after one has attempted the repair.

The user who buys a bladder and needs something in addition ends up frustrated, delayed getting back in the water, or worse they end up with a failure waiting to happen.

While not a problem for DSS, as we make all our bladders and wings in house, one must recognize that many brands use outside vendors, and if they have changed vendors and or designs they may not have a source for bladders for "legacy" products.

Tobin

---------- Post added July 19th, 2013 at 10:51 AM ----------

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

A few general points regarding wings:

I've seen some pretty hammered wings, and I've *never* seen a wing damaged from sand or salt inside the bladder or between the inner bladder and the outer shell. Urethane is very abrasion resistant. The vast majority of damaged bladders are the result of pinch flats.

Weld failures (seams) can occur as urethane ages. Unfortunately there isn't much a manufacturer can do to predict this. A welding schedule (welding machine parameters) that produce a very good weld, that passes all tests, may still see some bladders that fail at the seams, typically after many years. I suspect that exposure to consistent high temps increases the chances of such a failure, but I don't have enough good data to be certain.

Salt / sand in the bladder does not cause welded seams to "unzip" I do clean my wings and encourage other users to do so. Sand can eventually cut the stitching in the outer shells, and having nasty moldy things growing in my bladder doesn't doesn't appeal to me. Rinsing the wing also helps to keep the OPV and power inflator working.

Should wing manufacturers sell bladders "on demand"? Installation of a bladder does require special tools, and a bit of skill. There are any number of failures, some of which may not evidence themselves immediately, that can result from improper assembly. That fact has always made me reluctant to sell bladders.

In addition it is all too common that a bladder alone is not the solution. Often one needs to replace parts of the fittings, or a gasket etc., and this may not be apparent until after one has attempted the repair.

The user who buys a bladder and needs something in addition ends up frustrated, delayed getting back in the water, or worse they end up with a failure waiting to happen.

While not a problem for DSS, as we make all our bladders and wings in house, one must recognize that many brands use outside vendors, and if they have changed vendors and or designs they may not have a source for bladders for "legacy" products.

Tobin

Thanks for replying Tobin. Everything you've said makes sense, and your policy seems reasonable. And for the record, they are not DSS wings.


The bladders in question are just under 5 years old. No special tools needed to remove or install them, in fact, no tools at all are required. Tobin's points about incorrect assembly are important ones... but I'm able to do this level of repair without any issues.


Regarding which wing the failure occurred with, I'm not trying to be coy; I simply don't want to name the brand because I don't consider this to be a "defect" in manufacturing, and don't want to smear a perfectly good product or company.

Just incredible bad luck that two "middle aged" wings failed at the same time, and I believe it is more of a fluke rather than any indicator that there is a problem that folks need to be aware of.


Thanks for the replies. I may have been short on coffee and high on frustration when I made the original post, but stand by my position that a modular system such as a BP/W should be repairable by the end user if they feel comfortable performing the repair.


But then again I feel the same way about regulators, and that hasn't gotten too many manufacturers to budge either

Best wishes.