why hate safety devices?

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Squawking and beeping pre and post dive and everywhere else?
Mostly especially post dive on the calming vessel whilst reliving
such a wondrous experience or not is mind numbingly irritating


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Ahhh. Such innovation progression and peace...:zen:...Please mpetryk...:yinyang:
 
...who the hell wants to go back to J-valves?

Me!

Makes me a better (more skilled) diver, among other things...

+J valve = consideration of the effects of depth and duration on gas consumption.
+DH = stronger muscles of respiration and use of body position for breath control.
- BC = consideration of proper weighting and breath for control of bouyancy.
- safe second = awareness of the relationship between diver and surface.

While it is true that advances may address certain safety issues (usually arising from pushing the limits of recreational diving with basic kit), the unintended consequence is often an errosion of situational awareness and skill when used at the recreational level. Look at many modern divers:

Going OOA despite functioning SPG's, out of shape, over weighted, poor bouyancy and postural control, forgetting to drop weightbelts rejecting regs when in difficulty, lack of awareness of depth and dive duration, no knowledge of how their gear operates or how to effect repairs in the field, unable to correctly plan gas consumption...

I have found that eliminating many "necessary" components of my kit has forced me to relearn the core skills that the kit was compensating for. I do reintegrate those features for some dives but I am not reliant on them in the way I was before. I know how long my gas should last at certain depths, I don't use my BC like an elevator, I know where the surface is and how to get there, I'm not afraid my reg won't deliver enough air, I know how to troubleshoot my rig...

Aids to augment skill = good
Aids to replace skill = bad

I do however, always dive with this baby:
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and this baby:
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I'd like to take this opportunity to invite the majority of those who posted in this thread to re-read the OP. This isn't about relying upon an audible warning, or supplanting training with hardware and software.

Many posters have made their biases very clear. Few of those have addressed the OP.

The problem is that the OP is a loaded question and is biased from the start.
 
For example, a pilot should know to watch the altitude gauge. Also, pilots of aircraft with retractable landing gear should know to extend said landing gear prior to landing. I am not a pilot, but I am sure that warning systems exist in aircraft to alert pilots to low altitude and retracted landing gear, irrespective of how good the pilot is

You're making assumptions here, and indeed your whole post is indeed full of "loaded questions". I AM a pilot, and I can say that other than in training I have never caused a low height warning or a retracted landing gear warning, or indeed a stall warning, to sound when I wasn't expecting it anyway. NEVER do I wait for any of these warnings before I take the necessary action. In my car I NEVER wait for the low oil pressure light to show, as by then most of the damage has been done. I occasionally set an alarm on a dive computer, for a pO2 or a depth, but I don't think I've EVER had that alarm take me by surprise. The only time I've been taken by surprise by a safety alarm was when my CCR's manual oxygen injection button malfunctioned, and the loop went into a dangerous state in a lot less time than it has taken to write it here.

IMO a diver needs to learn the necessary skills before all else, and may then discover that these "safety" measures are in fact redundant.
 
You're making assumptions here, and indeed your whole post is indeed full of "loaded questions". I AM a pilot, and I can say that other than in training I have never caused a low height warning or a retracted landing gear warning, or indeed a stall warning, to sound when I wasn't expecting it anyway. NEVER do I wait for any of these warnings before I take the necessary action. In my car I NEVER wait for the low oil pressure light to show, as by then most of the damage has been done. I occasionally set an alarm on a dive computer, for a pO2 or a depth, but I don't think I've EVER had that alarm take me by surprise. The only time I've been taken by surprise by a safety alarm was when my CCR's manual oxygen injection button malfunctioned, and the loop went into a dangerous state in a lot less time than it has taken to write it here.

IMO a diver needs to learn the necessary skills before all else, and may then discover that these "safety" measures are in fact redundant.

Yup - failure to read. Please refer to posts #1, #56, and #60.

I am sure that you are a great diver. I am glad that you got to post about it here. The thread is not about replacing skill with devices. It is a question about what harm it does to have this safety gear as a redundancy. peterbj7, I am sure that you have not yet, nor will you ever need to use your "pilot safety gear." I am also sure that pilots are very well trained. So, why is your "pilot safety gear" there in the first place?
 
The problem is that the OP is a loaded question and is biased from the start.

It is easier to hide behind that assertion than it is to support it.

It is also easier to hide behind that assertion than it is to counter the OP.
 
You're making assumptions here, and indeed your whole post is indeed full of "loaded questions". I AM a pilot, and I can say that other than in training I have never caused a low height warning or a retracted landing gear warning, or indeed a stall warning, to sound when I wasn't expecting it anyway. NEVER do I wait for any of these warnings before I take the necessary action. In my car I NEVER wait for the low oil pressure light to show, as by then most of the damage has been done. I occasionally set an alarm on a dive computer, for a pO2 or a depth, but I don't think I've EVER had that alarm take me by surprise. The only time I've been taken by surprise by a safety alarm was when my CCR's manual oxygen injection button malfunctioned, and the loop went into a dangerous state in a lot less time than it has taken to write it here.

IMO a diver needs to learn the necessary skills before all else, and may then discover that these "safety" measures are in fact redundant.

I, too, am a pilot. Not commercial, just Private Pilot. You no doubt remember the training exercises we both had to master, and demonstrate, in case of instrument failure. My instructors drilled "seat-of-the-pants" flying skills into my head until I could fly, and land, the plane purely by sight and feel.

In SCUBA, when a diver is completely dependent on equipment for safety, an instrument (gauge/computer) failure can be countered by ending the dive and going to the surface. For a pilot, no matter what has failed, he still has to fly the plane until he can manage to get it safely back on the ground. A pilot has to be able to fly his aircraft with nothing more than stick, rudder and throttle, just in case he suddenly finds himself in a position where that is all he has.

There was a time when SCUBA divers were trained in much the same way. The basic skills were taught first, and students had to demonstrate an adequate mastery of those skills. Afterword, training in use of the "safety" equipment was given. That way, the diver knew how to handle situations of equipment failure.

I am not, in the least, against the development of equipment that makes diving easier and less stressful. I am concerned, however that many current divers rely too heavily on their technology for their safety. Computers, BCs, digital gauges and all the other bells and whistles are great conveniences for those who want to use them. But relying too heavily on these "safety devices", I feel, could actually make diving less safe for the diver who finds himself in the right place, at the wrong time, with an unexpected gear failure.

By all means enjoy the high tech toys if you want to, but do yourself a favor and learn how to dive "by the seat of your pants."
 
The reason I choose not to use the "safety gear" you refer to is that it adds no value for me, it is costly, and tends to clutter up my gear arrangement. I can well understand that some divers might like the crutch it can provide for them, and I would never suggest they should not take it down with them. I just choose not to for myself.

The "safety gear" in an aircraft, much like the low oil pressure warning light in a car, has no impact at all on the pilot. It does not alter in anyway his conduct of the aircraft. It costs money to include but he has no say in that.

Perhaps a better example might be the automatic opening device for a parachute when the wearer passes through a certain low height at such a speed that it is clear he doesn't have an open parachute above him. I never used to use one because I didn't see any added value. At about the time I stopped jumping they became mandatory in the UK (and I suspect the whole of the EU, as most legislation for Britain comes from Brussels these days). Interestingly they were only mandatory for a few years, then the requirement was cancelled. Many still choose to wear them, but many others took them off as soon as they could, because of the perceived safety problem associated with premature deployment. That perception must have had substance as it was the reason for that law being repealed.

Incidentally, a "loaded question" is a grammatical fact that can be easily established. It arises when a question makes an underlying assertion. Yours did. It WAS a loaded question.
 
I, too, am a pilot. Not commercial, just Private Pilot

Just like me. I have held various ratings (which all lapse after a while) for aerobatics, float planes, alpine rating (for flying in the Alps and landing/taking off on snow), instrument & night. I have flown but am not rated on twins and helicopters. I agree with your underlying point that you have to learn to trust your instruments, but at the same time must still be able to fly if some of those stop working. Descending through 12,000 ft of dense cloud after my gyros had tumbled (I'm sure you know what that means) was one of my least pleasant experiences.
 
Yup - failure to read. Please refer to posts #1, #56, and #60.

I am sure that you are a great diver. I am glad that you got to post about it here. The thread is not about replacing skill with devices. It is a question about what harm it does to have this safety gear as a redundancy. peterbj7, I am sure that you have not yet, nor will you ever need to use your "pilot safety gear." I am also sure that pilots are very well trained. So, why is your "pilot safety gear" there in the first place?

I think what peterbj7 is trying to say is that, like water, it is human nature to take the path of least resistance. There is nothing wrong with having the redundancies, as long as they remain redundancies and do not become primary, technological crutches for divers who have become lazy or habitually inattentive.

I have a computer, but as a convenience and not a necessity. I also dive with a depth gauge and watch. I keep a set of Navy dive tables in a pocket. A dead computer does not, necessarily, kill a dive.

I have taken, recently, to wearing a BC, but I carefully weight myself so that I don't have to use it for buoyancy control. I probably wouldn't even be aware of a BC failure.

I have an SPG, but I also time my dives according to depth, air supply and SAC rate. If my SPG fails, I can use my watch to figure how much air I have left. I also use J valves, but endeavor to be back on the surface well before they warn me of low air. I will modify that last with this: When I am diving in shallow water (less than 30 ft.) I may stay down longer, until the J valve kicks in. I know I can safely reach the surface in case of OOA from that depth, so I might push it a bit if I feel there is a good reason to do so. I won't, however, do this if I am diving with a buddy.

I don't hate modern technology, I just think it should be kept in the proper perspective.
 

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