Why ‘everyone is responsible for their own risk-based decisions’ isn’t the right approach to take

[drrich2]

Au contraire. I have noticed more than a few changes over the years.

I'm not 'anti-change,' I'm cautious about it. I'm glad for a number of changes that've happened.

One thing that I think could be acted on is a standardized pre-dive written checklist.

Okay, and many people will, once familiarity breeds contempt, quit using it. Are you okay with that, or are you going to try to 'do something about it?'

Richard.

 

[boulderjohn]

An OSHA system is exactly what will happen when you take away personal responsibility.

However, it's the responsibility of every diver to recognize danger, analyze it, correct it or call the dive.

Pete, please, please, please please go back and read the links I gave on the either/or; false dilemma, black/white fallacy. Your argument is dripping with it, and it makes communication impossible. You seem to see the opposition as saying that the individual is never, ever responsible for his or her actions, and so in response you say the individual is always 100% accountable for his or her actions.

I asked you about this in a previous thread when you laid it all down, as you did above, to the responsibility of the diver "to recognize danger, analyze it, correct it or call the dive." You didn't answer. Can you evert conceive of the possibility that somewhere, sometime, some diver did not have enough knowledge to recognize the danger and took the word of a seasoned professional, a recognized expert, that there was nothing to fear in the dive? Is it possible that an inexperienced diver may not have the experience to recognize the danger in a situation and thus would have no reason to call the dive, or are all your OW students so ******* perfect that they can never be fooled by any diving situation anywhere? If so, I would like to meet one of your newly created OW divers so I can learn something.

 

[JamesBon92007]

As soon as the diver leaves that OW class, the diver's experiences affect his or her limits, and those limits begin to grow. As the diver tries to understand what those constantly changing limits are, the input of others affects that understanding.

When my girlfriend was getting her PADI OW certification recently, my interpretation of PADI's OW limitations was that they are more of a recommendation (maximum depth of 60', etc) and that they expect you to gain more experience, and as you gain more experience you are no longer "restricted" to the original suggested limitations. IOW, after you have successfully been down to 70' your "new" limit is 70' and no longer 60'. From your point of view is that an accurate interpretation? Since she has been to 80' (and with an instructor, if that is significant) I told her that, to my understanding, she is now certified to 80'. Am I wrong? I also told her that if they tell her that the maximum depth of the dive is going to be 90' that she does not have to go that deep if she is uncomfortable with that depth. This, of course, would be in a situation such as a Cozumel reef where she could easily follow the group from 10-15 feet above them without risk of losing sight of the group.

 

[boulderjohn]

When my girlfriend was getting her PADI OW certification recently, my interpretation of PADI's OW limitations was that they are more of a recommendation (maximum depth of 60', etc) and that they expect you to gain more experience, and as you gain more experience you are no longer "restricted" to the original suggested limitations. IOW, after you have successfully been down to 70' your "new" limit is 70' and no longer 60'. From your point of view is that an accurate interpretation? Since she has been to 80' (and with an instructor, if that is significant) I told her that, to my understanding, she is now certified to 80'. Am I wrong? I also told her that if they tell her that the maximum depth of the dive is going to be 90' that she does not have to go that deep if she is uncomfortable with that depth. This, of course, would be in a situation such as a Cozumel reef where she could easily follow the group from 10-15 feet above them without risk of losing sight of the group.

You are pretty much correct, with qualifications. We assume that as she gradually does deeper and deeper on those dives, those dives are successful. (She is not going down 20 more feet and panicking, for example.) We assume she is getting a better sense of how long her air will last at the increasing depth. We are assuming she is getting comfortable at those depths and is not anxious. We assume she is getting to the point that she respects the challenges of those deeper depths but does not fear them.

 

[GJC]

I'm not 'anti-change,' I'm cautious about it. I'm glad for a number of changes that've happened.



Okay, and many people will, once familiarity breeds contempt, quit using it. Are you okay with that, or are you going to try to 'do something about it?'

Richard.

I have a pre-dive checklist sticker on my wrist slate and use it.

I think if a written checklist is provided to every student and they are expected to use it during the course dives, many will continue to use it for every dive. Some people will not, but incidents and accidents will be reduced overall because of those that do use it.

 

[seeker242]

An OSHA system is exactly what will happen when you take away personal responsibility.

I've read this whole thread from the beginning and have seen nothing at all about taking away personal responsibility...

 

[Bob DBF]

Your individual experience does not apply to all other individuals. You were either very smart, very lucky or some combination of both.

I'd like to say it is my superior intellegence, but some people on the board know me. I was trained to have good judgment diving, the same way I was trained to have good judgement handling firearms.

The knowledge and skills of diving are simple as shown by how fast one can be certified now. Learning good judgement takes time with a good instructor discussing how to make good decisions diving, this is possible in longer classes, not so much in quick ones.

The reason we had the first cert cards was definitely not to protect dive ops. The first certs were issued by LA County Lifeguards because a lot of untrained divers were dying. Preventing untrained people from dying continues to be the reason for certification.

Now we have trained divers dying. I would say the bigger reasons for divers fatality rate dropping was the introduction of the BC, SPG, and cave training.



Bob

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

SCUBA diving is by in large an unregulated industry.
Who is responsible to make sure the student learns enough to be safe?
Who do the instructors answer to?
Who holds the agencies accountable?
I’m not sure at that point because I’m not an instructor, the RSTC?
Who does the RSTC answer to?
If the buck stops at the agency or RSTC level with no government regulatory system, wouldn’t it circle back to the consumer that would ultimately hold them accountable?
I guess this would place the responsibility onto the consumer to keep the system in line.
With free unregulated industries I guess the consumer is in charge by deciding where to spend their money, who to support, and if they get maimed or injured who to sue.
Let’s not forget that agencies are not always the best at self regulation. The two things that keep them in line is either litigation, or loss of market share.
A third could be bad press thanks to the internet, but ultimately that could develop into lost market share.

 

[GJC]

I'd like to say it is my superior intellegence, but some people on the board know me. I was trained to have good judgment diving, the same way I was trained to have good judgement handling firearms.

The knowledge and skills of diving are simple as shown by how fast one can be certified now. Learning good judgement takes time with a good instructor discussing how to make good decisions diving, this is possible in longer classes, not so much in quick ones.



Now we have trained divers dying. I would say the bigger reasons for divers fatality rate dropping was the introduction of the BC, SPG, and cave training.



Bob

I'm pretty sure the diver death rate dropped in LA County after they started their cert program and that the diver death rate for all divers dropped further after the additional changes you mentioned. Saying we now have trained divers dying is not evidence that certs don't reduce deaths. We just no longer have an uncertified diver death rate to compare to the certified diver death rate.

I don't know the numbers, so I can't comment on which made the greater difference. If you have data comparing those, I'm interested in looking at it.

 

[Colliam7]

Personal responsibility is a factor in preventing accidents, but it is not the only factor we should be focusing on to prevent accidents.

Further considering the initial post, and the subsequent thoughtful discussion, I think I am beginning to better understand the point(s) being made.

I do agree that decision-making ability is not static. The environment in which decisions are made does play an role. GLOC mentioned the potential effects of narcosis, for example. It is intriguing to consider whether the simple act of gearing up changes a diver's cognitive functioning. Decisions are clearly impacted by external pressures - peer pressure, time pressure, the need to appear to be in command, the need to appear to be confident, the need to appear to be capable. Those pressures affect judgement. That does NOT take away the responsibility of any individual diver for his/her own safety. But, it certainly provides ample opportunity for compromised decision-making. And, saying 'You are responsible for your own safety, so you better use good judgement' doesn't really do much to help deal with those pressures. I really believe that the majority of divers actually get the fact that they are responsible for their own safety. But, they may not appreciate what is gradually developing into an unsafe situation (the frog in water gradually coming to a boil scenario). They may not always know when they are in danger. And, when they finally realize it, their judgement suffers from panic.

And it may not be the most important factor that we can do something to change that will make a difference.

Possibly. Our general focus has been on encouraging rigorous (initial and continued) training. That makes sense, and gives us something to argue about on SB. But, I am not sure that most accidents are a direct result of poor training. Or intellectual incompetence. Or outright recklessness. Sure, some events are. And, some are the result of divers failing to maintain and further develop their skills after certification.

But, I am even more sensitive now to the influence of the environment 0n judgement when diving. I may still accept responsibility, but if I am unable to think clearly I can still get into trouble.

How do we affect that factor?